TRANSCRIPT Bullseye with Jesse Thorn: 25 Interviews for 25 Years

[00:00:00]

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Transition: Gentle, trilling music with a steady drumbeat plays under the dialogue.

Promo: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR.

Music: “Huddle Formation” from the album Thunder, Lightning, Strike by The Go! Team—a fast, upbeat, peppy song. Music plays as Jesse speaks, then fades out.

Jesse Thorn: It is Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. All this month we’ve been celebrating the 25th anniversary of Bullseye, meaning I have been doing this show since I was in college at KZSC in Santa Cruz, California—the Heavyweight 88. How have we celebrated this auspicious milestone? Well, we reached deep into the archives to find some of the oldest recordings we could find, even if they made me sound—I mean, you know—like a doofus who was in college. We traveled the country. We brought live shows to Los Angeles, New York City, and Santa Cruz. And one night in October, I invited a bunch of people up to our office at Maximum Fun HQ. I sat each of them down in the studio and recorded 25 interviews back to  back to back to back to back.

Was it easy doing 25 interviews? It was not. Was it fun? Yeah, you bet. This week we’ve made a very special episode of that magical and exhausting night. How did we do 25 interviews in one night? Well, like we said, we had everybody gathered in our offices. They were hanging out in our kitchen with pizza and soda. A few people had last minute emergencies and had to join online. And then we kept it to time! You will hear on the recording a beep toward the beginning and end of each interview. That was our signal to wrap. We have a literal workout clock (laughs) in the studio that we used.

(A beep.)

You’ll hear from Rob Corddry, Lisa Loeb, Elvis Mitchell, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, and many more!

(Fun, jazzy music fades in.)

Okay, we don’t have a lot of time. Let’s get to the booth.

My first guest is one of the first people who ever worked on Bullseye. In fact, he’s been working on Bullseye since the second week that it aired. Because the first week, I thought my co-host was gonna be my friend Matt Dobbs.

His name is Jordan Morris. Jordan, come on in here. Jordan, of course, is my co-host on Jordan, Jesse, Go!. He is also the author of the graphic novel Youth Group. I was his RA. Hi, Jordan. How are you?

Jordan Morris: Hi, Jesse. It’s great to be here. Congratulations on 25 years of Bullseye. Oh my god.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you for coming in! Thank you for bringing the energy right away. I’m glad our segment producers got to you.

(They laugh.)

I wish they’d given me notes on what to do!

Jordan Morris: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be the first guest on this marathon.

(A beep.)

Is it true that the guests only get less exciting from here?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, that’s absolutely correct.

(Jordan laughs.)

No, I mean, at the end of the day when you’re on the internet, people are gonna wanna see Cotton Candy Randy, and then from there on out it’s aaaaall a decline.

(Jordan agrees.)

Do you remember meeting me?

Jordan Morris: I don’t think I remember the like exact moment, but an early memory I have is like— So, you were my RA at UC Santa Cruz.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Performing arts hall.

Jordan Morris: Go Slugs. Anyway. And I remember you had posters for The Kids in the Hall and Tenacious D. Like, meeting someone who not only had like heard of this stuff but liked it in the same way that I did, that was like a big deal. And I remember thinking you were cool, because you were on the college improv team.

(Jesse giggles.)

And there’s nobody cooler than the captain of a college improv team. Were you the captain? Is that fair to say?

Jesse Thorn: No, that isn’t fair to say. Two nice guys started the college improv team, and they quickly lost control of it. There was—

Jordan Morris: There’s always power struggles within improv groups. (Chuckles.)

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. And that’s when you and I started working together, I think.

Jordan Morris: Yeah, yeah! I auditioned for the improv group. I got in; I was so excited! And yeah. That started a comedy career that I think many would call fine!

(They laugh and Jesse agrees.)

The beginnings of a comedy career that some would call relatively consistent.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughing.) Yeah.

Did you know—speaking of relatively consistent, did you know that the improv group that we started in when we were in college—

Jordan Morris: Would you say Humor Force Five?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Which was new the year that I—my freshman year of college. You’re one year younger than I. Did you know that that improv group still exists and is holding auditions right now?!

Jordan Morris: What?! (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: I mean, not like right this minute. But I just saw their posting for auditions.

Jordan Morris: I did. That’s really amazing. It’s very cool. Wild that kind of a sweaty, Pulp Fiction reference is still a fine name for a college improv group.

[00:05:00]

(Jesse agrees.)

Yeah! Really cool! I know. Those were some fun times. I am very—like, part of me is very embarrassed to have done improv for as long as I did. But yeah. But it was a really cool thing, and I met you doing it, and it led to our college radio show and eventual podcast. And yeah, when I moved to LA, doing stuff at Upright Citizens Brigade and the late IO comedy theater, those were cool things. And I met a lot of cool people. Improv, (laughs) a little bit embarrassing, but it forges—

Jesse Thorn: (Scoffing.) Improv’s great!

Jordan Morris: It forges some bonds, doesn’t it?

Jesse Thorn: And we worked with some wonderful people.

(Jordan agrees.)

Did you ever like get your broadcast license at KCSC? Did you ever take the class where you have to learn how to operate the emergency alert system and stuff?

Jordan Morris: I did, yeah. So, I did. So, I think to host a show on KZSE—88.1FM, the Heavyweight 88—you have to do a certain amount of volunteer hours. Then you have to like—yeah—learn all that stuff. You have to learn like when to do the public service announcements, how to play the emergency alert, things like that. And you have to do like volunteer hours, like logging CDs. I don’t know what they do now. Do they still log CDs?

Jesse Thorn: Probably! I don’t know! Who knows? Yeah.

Jordan Morris: Maybe. Yeah, so a lot of like listening to new releases and listening for swears and marking the tracks that had swears. So, yeah. I did that, and I like hosted or co-hosted some like other shows while I was there. I did a show called The Funny Show, where I played like comedy records.

Jesse Thorn: I don’t remember—

(A beep.)

Oh! Well!

Jordan Morris: Noooo! We can’t—(sighs) people are gonna wanna hear about the records I played during The Funny Show, BUT THEY CAN’T! Because time’s up!

Jesse Thorn: They’re not gonna hear anything about your ska show, Jordan!

Jordan Morris: Oh yeah! (Laughs.) Oh yeah. The Special Brew with Brian Heater. I’m sorry. We cannot reminisce about that. I’m so proud that I was a little part of Bullseye. And yeah, 25 years.

Jesse Thorn: Sorry, Jordan, did you hear the sound?

Jordan Morris: Oh god! I’m sorry! Okay! Uh, stay tuned for the guy who parks the cars at the studio! (Chuckles.) Again, the guests get less exciting from here.

Jesse Thorn: Jordan Morris! (Chuckling.) Our next guest on the program, as we interview 25 people for the 25th anniversary of Bullseye, is one of the stars of The Daily Show, Children’s Hospital, and Hot Tub Time Machine. He’s in the movie The Senior, which is in theaters and soon coming to streaming: Mr. Rob Corddry. Rob Corddry. Come on in, Rob. Have a seat! How are you doing, bud?

Rob Corddry: Look, I’m moving fast ’cause we only have five.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, that sound means the timer has started.

Rob Corddry: Okay, go!

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: We seem to be using— We’re using like the timer that you would have at a swim meet.

Rob Corddry: I wonder how many of your guests today are gonna be like a little, edgy. On edge.

Jesse Thorn: Well, you’re used to having a segment producer on late-night television tell you what to say and give you jokes to say.

Rob Corddry: Yeah, but on late night television—

Jesse Thorn: You’re basically just a puppet.

Rob Corddry: You’re like, “I can’t wait—” It seems like it goes on forever. You can’t wait to be off it, you know?

Jesse Thorn: I have a question for you, Rob.

Rob Corddry: Go ahead.

Jesse Thorn: You’re one of the handsomest guys I know.

Rob Corddry: Agree.

Jesse Thorn: Have you always—? How do you feel about being bald?

Rob Corddry: Oh, I love it.

Jesse Thorn: Really?

(Rob confirms.)

I ask you this as a bald person, myself.

Rob Corddry: Yeah. You know, I love hearing people talk about, oh, their problems with their hair, or “I’m thinking about doing this, and I’m thinking about doing that.” And there’s so much stress involved with it. And it’s just— Luckily you and I were born with a fairly normal shaped head.

(Jesse agrees.)

Right? We look good bald.

Jesse Thorn: Some people have protuberances.

Rob Corddry: (Chuckles.) Some people don’t—they have ripples and stuff. But you know, we’re lucky. And now I can just kind of indulge in the freedom of not having to care about so, so many things that other people have to care about!

Jesse Thorn: So, you see the primary advantage of this as being like hair product related? Is that what you’re saying?

Rob Corddry: Oh, no, no, no! Well, hair product related, that’s indirectly. But like directly, just the stress of not knowing what to do with your hair. Like, there’s only one thing to do with our hair. Or two things. Let it grow out, or shave it. You know? That’s it.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Have you ever thought about letting it grow out?

Rob Corddry: Well, I have—I have. For a show I just did, I let it go a little bit longer. And it was—

Jesse Thorn: Did it go sideways?!

Rob Corddry: Yeeeeah. It doesn’t go down like, uh, Sonny Bono.

(They chuckle.)

It definitely like— But I didn’t grow it that much, but like—it wasn’t a good look. My wife did not like it.

Jesse Thorn: When was the last time you were not bald?

Rob Corddry: I think, fully like 22/23. My dad is bald. Every male in my family and some females are losing their hair.

[00:10:00]

And I was doing my hair one day in seventh grade, and I had a beautiful head of like feathered hair, butt cut. And I was combing it, and my dad walked past the bathroom, and there was this sitcom kind of pause when he— And then he came back, and he poked his head in and said, “Enjoy it.”

(They laugh.)

And from that moment on, I came to terms with be being a bald man. I was like— I knew it was in the cards. I accepted it, and I almost looked forward to it.

Jesse Thorn: Did you like make a plan for it? Did you always expect, “When I get to a certain point, I’m cutting off all my hair and being a real cue ball”?

Rob Corddry: It was more about thinking I was something I wasn’t, like in terms of acting. Like, “Well, I gotta cram in these leading part, romantic leads now! (Laughing.) While I still have hair!” But like, I would never be that guy anyway. So, it was just kind of a false sense of self as a young person.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, you do have a special gift, in terms of castability. Which is that you are… as a handsome, bald guy, you are to some extent excluded from romantic leads. Unless you’re a giant muscle man like the rock or something.

(Rob affirms.)

However, you have exactly the right amount of approachability to be the best friend. Like, that gives you the… It’s like, you know how for a long time, every best friend on a sitcom was like a friendly Black guy with an afro and glasses? And it was the afro and glasses that made it—made him comfortable enough to racist white people that they could deal with him being on the show?

(Rob affirms.)

Right? Like, I think being bald is the equivalent of the eyeglasses and afro.

Rob Corddry: It’s definitely a thing. And also, to play a villain too. All you have to do is be able to sort of be likable in spite of playing what you’re playing.

Jesse Thorn: Have you ever worn a wig?

Rob Corddry: Yeah. I hate it.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, Rob, we’re out of time. You heard that the final heat ended with that beep. It’s very nice to see you.

Rob Corddry: Oh wow, yeah. It’s so great to see you! It’s been a long time! It’s good to be back.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. Indeed. And thank you for being a friend of this show for, lo, these many years. It’s very much appreciated.

Rob Corddry: Many, many. And congratulations.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. I’ll take it.

Rob Corddry: Happy birthday or whatever. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, whatever it is. I’ll take your congratulations, Rob.

Rob Corddry: Alright. You’re handsome too.

Jesse Thorn: Rob, thank you. That’s very nice of you. I didn’t say how handsome you were over and over to get you to say that, but I’m glad that it worked. Rob Corddry.

Joining me next is one of the first guests that I remember having on The Sound of Young America. The first guest that I remember having, Kevin, is Dick Dale, the king of the surf guitar. And Dick Dale, the king of the surf guitar— This is how we booked Dick Dale, the king of the surf guitar. Jordan went to DickDale.net. There was a phone number on there. He called the phone number, and it was just Dick Dale’s trailer. Just Dick Dale lived in a trailer in Palmdale or something, just called. “Yes, this is Dick Dale.” The next guest I remember talking to was already a legendary standup comic. He had already been in Down Periscope. Or McHale’s Navy. I can’t remember which one right now.

He remains one of America’s greatest standup comics. He, of course, was one of the stars of Big Fan and Ratatouille. He has a brand-new standup album coming out on November 20th called Black Coffee and Ice Water. Mr. Patton Oswalt. Hi, Patton!

(A beep.)

Patton Oswalt: Hey!

Jesse Thorn: Where are you, Patton?

Patton Oswalt: I am in the dressing room at the Pabst Theater in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Jesse Thorn: I really remember that like one of the proudest moments of my early career is— And I’ve shared this with you before, but like in 2002 or something like that, you were playing a New Year’s show in San Francisco with Greg Proops and Dana Gould.

(Patton confirms.)

And you guys were having a New Year’s Eve dinner in San Francisco, and I lived in San Francisco at the time. And you invited me and my wife. And we went to this dinner, and I remember so vividly you turning to someone there—Vendela Vita and Dave Eggers were there and Bucky Sinister was there. The modern drunkard guy whose name I’m forgetting right now was there.

(Patton confirms enthusiastically.)

[00:15:00]

And saying like, “These guys have a radio show where they interview people, but about comedy! Like, they care about comedy!”

Patton Oswalt: (Laughs.) Well, you gotta understand what a novelty and what an oasis you were for comedians back then. Because we were used to doing morning drive time, where they’re basically just trying to get you to set up your bits and do two quick, loud minutes and help them, you know, give away panties or t-shirts and just promote the club. It had nothing to do with actually talking to you like a human being. So, sitting down with someone that was a fan of the form and could talk to you the way that comedians talk to each other when they hang out meant a lot! It was a “oh!” I mean, now that’s the norm, I think, with podcasts. But back then that was, “Oh, wow! We’re gonna actually take our time and talk. This is fantastic!”

Jesse Thorn: Patton, I was just watching you on The Great American Baking Show holiday special. The Halloween holiday special.

(Patton laughs knowingly.)

My daughter will only watch Halloween-themed television programs through the entire month of October.

Patton Oswalt: Heck yeah!

Jesse Thorn: So, we really have to do a lot of digging. Like, I wanna be clear, Patton. Like, if you’re imagining that we’re allowed to watch, for example, a regular episode about a werewolf. No.

(Patton affirms.)

It has to have trick-or-treating type— It has to have Halloween content in it. The day, Halloween.

Patton Oswalt: Set in October. Brown and orange leaves, all of it.

Jesse Thorn: So, I’m watching you make this cake. And you won the challenge—spoiler alert—and I was really thrilled. But I have to say, that must have been a really tasty cake for you to win, ’cause it looked hooorrible.

Patton Oswalt: Yeah, it was— It came out very odd. Pumpkin and spice together, those weren’t really my favorite flavors. So, I’m not as focused on making it look amazing as I tried to make my quicksand cake look—which didn’t work. But yeah, I guess to taste beat the look!

Jesse Thorn: Did you fly to England to shoot that?

Patton Oswalt: I flew to England.

Jesse Thorn: That’s amazing. I mean—

Patton Oswalt: Out in the British countryside.

Jesse Thorn: Casey Wilson and Andrew Rannells are the hosts of the American version of the show. So, that’s like—

Patton Oswalt: Yep. They’re great.

Jesse Thorn: —I’m sure people that you know and have met, and they’re both wonderful. Both past guests of Bullseye. And so, I imagine there’s like some trust built into it because of that. But also, you flew all the way to England to embarrass yourself on television. (Laughs.)

Patton Oswalt: Yeah, exactly! That’s what—you know. Hey, look, at least I got a free trip to England out of it. I’m not complaining. I’m very, very happy. And I got to stay in a gorgeous hotel in the countryside—

(A beep.)

—and got to go into London one day. So, I have nooo complaints.

Jesse Thorn: Patton, the bell just rang, but I have one last follow up question for you. Which is:

Patton Oswalt: Go right ahead.

Jesse Thorn: Did you practice ahead of time?

Patton Oswalt: I did practice on the pumpkin spice cake. I did not practice on the quicksand cake, and it really showed.

Jesse Thorn: Well, Patton, I’m grateful for these literal decades of support that you’ve shown in the show and my work. And I’m—as you know, I couldn’t be a greater admirer of you and your work. So, thanks so much for making the time.

Patton Oswalt: Jesse, thanks for starting this, and thank you for sticking to it!

Jesse Thorn: What can I say? I’m afraid to try anything new.

Patton Oswalt: Then the world benefited from your terror!

Jesse Thorn: Say hi to the Pabst Theater for me. Thank you, Patton.

Patton Oswalt: I will! Thanks, man.

Jesse Thorn: The legendary Mr. Patton Oswalt. Oh!

By the way, if you are just tuning in, we are interviewing 25 people in a row in honor of the 25th anniversary of Bullseye, formerly The Sound of Young America. I’m Jesse Thorn.

Our next guest is a past co-host of this program with me. He’s also the first internet friend that I ever made. He’s worked on New Girl, BoJack Horseman, and Blackish among other television programs as a writer. He helped create the MaxFun podcast Bubble with Jordan Morris. Please welcome Nick Adams.

Hey, Nick. How’s it going, buddy? Have a seat.

Nick Adams: Thooorn!

Jesse Thorn: What did you expect, Nick, when you—

(A beep.)

We made friends on OKplayer.com through a comedy message board. I mean, a rap music message board.

Nick Adams: A comedy message board buried inside a hip-hop message board. It’s like the nerdiest place two people can meet.

Jesse Thorn: Exactly. Yeah. And you at the time were living in Arizona, I believe. Because your wife was in graduate school there.

Nick Adams: Mm-hm. Tucson.

Jesse Thorn: What did you expect when you agreed to come to Santa Cruz and guest host The Sound of Young America with me?

Nick Adams: Something deep inside me said, “This guy—you know, you can make a lifelong friend. You could find a kindred spirit in comedy.”

[00:20:00]

“And this guy will probably still be doing the show in a quarter-decade.”]

(Jesse laughs.)

I knew it! I knew it in my bones.

Jesse Thorn: The thing about the radio station— This was the summer after Jordan graduated from college. So, I am a year older than Jordan. So, I kept driving back to Santa Cruz for a year while Jordan was still in college for us to do our college radio show together. Then he graduated, and that’s when I had this fateful conversation with my now wife—then girlfriend—which was, she said to me—(correcting himself) I said to her, “I feel like maybe Jordan’s graduated. Maybe I should stop doing The Sound of Young America, because I live an hour and a half away from the radio station, and I’m not a student there anymore.”

Nick Adams: It’s a little McConaughey. It’s a little…

Jesse Thorn: It’s a little—yeah, exactly. In fact, I think what I said was, “I feel like I’m wearing my letter jacket from being the football quarterback back to the high school.”

And she said to me the fateful words “Well, you don’t do anything else.” Which was true at the time. And I decided to keep doing it. And that’s when I decided, this summer at least, I’m gonna have co-hosts. ‘Cause I was terrified. So, it was like you, W Kamau Bell—who I think it was also on OKPlayer a little bit. Brent Weinbach, the Kasper Hauser guys, Kathi Kamen Goldmark, all these people that I just begged to drive to Santa Cruz to do this. Why were you even in the area?

Nick Adams: My wife was in a conference. It was like a women writers of color conference that she was doing in San Francisco. She has family there, so we were just staying there. I did a set at the Punchline. And then I was like telling my wife’s family—like, they were like, “What are you gonna Santa Cruz for?”

I was like, “Oh, yeah. My buddy who I met on the internet has a radio show at Santa Cruz.” (Laughs.)

“Oh, does he go to Santa Cruz?”

“Nnno. He used to, but he still has a radio show at Santa Cruz.”

And they’re like, “You’re driving—? You’re not gonna get murdered are you?”

I was like, “I don’t know! I might get murdered, but…”

Jesse Thorn: It’s amazing to me. There are like these two internet message boards that I spent so much time on when I was 20 years old. A Special Thing, the comedy message board, and OKPlayer, which was mostly a music board—although there was a lot of other things going on there. And I think like the communities of people that I met there have actually been essential to my life.

(Nick agrees.)

You know, just yesterday I was on Reddit, and somebody in a menswear forum was asking about this scarf that one of the characters from Black Panther was wearing. And I’m like, “Oh! I can help this person! Yeah, my friend Wale Oyejide from OKplayer designed that scarf!” (Laughs.)

Nick Adams: Well, that’s what’s amazing about the internet. We talk a lot about the bad of it, but whatever it is you’re passionate about, there is another idiot out there in the world who is similarly passionate about it. You just have to find them. And before message boards, it was like, “How do I find this other idiot?” And now you can just type in, “Hey, is there another idiot that is really passionate about this one random thing?” And there’s like a long list of people who are like even more passionate about it. And you’re like, “Okay, I gotta back outta here.” (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: You’ve always been relatively long on, bravado among the people who I know.

Nick Adams: That’s about all I’m long on, Jesse.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) Oh, okay! It’s public radio, sir.

(Nick “ay-yo”s.)

Did you feel at that time—I mean, I’m talking about 2003 or whatever it was—that you were going to have a career in comedy? ‘Cause you’ve had a pretty—not as a standup, but mostly as a writer. But you had an extraordinary career as a writer.

Nick Adams: I think if you do it long enough— The curse is, it’s not like “I’m destined to be great, or I know I have enough to be rich and famous.” It’s a little of what you were talking about with the show. It’s like, “I don’t know how to do anything else.”

(Jesse laughs.)

“I don’t wanna do anything else.” And then if you stick with something long enough, you’re like, “Oh, (censor beep) I’m pretty good at it.” You know?

Jesse Thorn: I have this really vivid memory of the original administrator of OKplayer, went to work as a television writer on—

Nick Adams: Mm-hm! Angela, yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. On Girlfriends, I think, if I remember correctly.

Nick Adams: Uhhhh, Scrubs. She was on Scrubs; I know for sure.

Jesse Thorn: Scrubs? And—

(A beep.)

That was the first person who actually worked in showbusiness that I ever— I didn’t know her! At all! But to me, that meant showbusiness was real. (Laughs.)

Nick Adams: And everyone on the boards was like, “Oh no, this—! She’s doing it!” You know, you can do it or a person can do it. Yeah. It’s weird. But it does— Like, it expands your networks, and then that expands your network of possibilities. And obviously, The Foreign Exchange, you know, the second most amazing  Black/White OKplayer, showbiz hookup in history. Shoutout to those guys.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. We’re number one, right?

Nick Adams: We’re absolutely number one. Unless there’s another couple of guys.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) Nick, the beep went off. Thank you for joining me on this special show!

Nick Adams: Anytime, Thorny!

Jesse Thorn: Nick Adams! Nick Adams. Television writer, Nick Adams.

Our next guest is—(aside) thank you, bud. Our next guest is another old friend of ours.

[00:25:00]

We’re gonna get into lots of famous people over the course of this conversation, but this next guest is an old friend. He is a musician and programmer. He is also a classmate of mine from UC Santa Cruz. He was my freshman year dorm room neighbor. And he is also the composer and performer of the original theme music for The Sound of Young America. You can buy his t-shirts on Instagram at @CrueltyRotsYourSoul, Dan Grayson. Hi, Dan. How you doing, bud?

Dan Grayson: Hey, doing great!

Jesse Thorn: You’re wearing the original Sound of Young America t-shirt right now!

Dan Grayson: I am, yeah! With the Ming the Merciless rocket ship on it.

Jesse Thorn: Did you like just steal it directly from Ming the Merciless?

Dan Grayson: Uh, yeah, I did actually!

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: Okay, good! That’s called graphic design.

Do you remember writing The Sound of Young America theme music?

Dan Grayson: Oh yeah, absolutely! I mean, it takes me back to circa—what? Maybe 2002/2003, something like that?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah! 2002, maybe? ‘Cause you would’ve been— You’re one year older than ,I so you would’ve been graduated from college. I would’ve still been either in my senior year or in my bonus year, where I was driving pathetically back and forth to Santa Cruz to do the show with Jordan.

Dan Grayson: Mm-hm. Yeah. And so, I was living in a pool house in Valley Village that our friend Jesse Davis’s grandma had. And—

Jesse Thorn: There was no bathroom.

Dan Grayson: There was no bathroom in there. No. I had to go across, walk past the pool, and use the bathroom in the house over there. But what we did have was a very makeshift little recording studio set up.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, you had—when we were in college, between your sophomore year and your junior year—you made like a choice to transform your life. (Chuckles.) Where previously, you had been a classic guy with a Pink Floyd bedsheet tied to his wall, just the most classic version of that. A lovely one! A lovely one!

Dan Grayson: Oh yeah. That specific kind of nerd though, you know?

Jesse Thorn: Yes. And you were always a lovely man. I wanna make that clear. And then you just, at some point in your junior year of college, were like, “Hey, I wrote and recorded an album.” (Chuckles.) And you like started playing shows from having just been a guy that just sat with headphones in his studio. That was very inspirational to me, Dan!

Dan Grayson: Yeah. I went for a full-on rebrand, I would say. I used to call it the Era of the New Dan. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah! And it worked great. And one of the elements of that was writing and recording original music.

Dan Grayson: Oh yeah! It was absolutely transformative. Like, that was the thing.

Jesse Thorn: We used to drag you to the station sometimes too. In addition to us writing that theme song in the pool house, like we used to bring you to the station at like 7:30 in the morning sometimes.

Dan Grayson: Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, like I remember us doing it for the show, but we were also doing the KCSC news stuff too, and—yeah.

(Jesse confirms in a whisper.)

You were the news director; I was the assistant news director. And we had that show that we would do every week for that.

Jesse Thorn: You know that the next assistant news director became the producer of Bullseye with Jesse Thorn? Nick White.

Dan Grayson: Oh my god! (Laughs.) I didn’t actually know that.

Jesse Thorn: So, I guess what I’m telling you is: you blew it.

(Dan agrees with a laugh.)

Your highly successful job where you work at PayPal now is a total failure, ’cause you could have been working in public radio this whole time.

(A beep.)

Dan Grayson: I know. Look what I could have done instead.

Jesse Thorn: Dan, thank you for joining us. It’s nice to see you, friend.

Dan Grayson: Jesse, it was an honor.

Jesse Thorn: Good luck with that beautiful baby. I love seeing the pictures of the beautiful baby.

(Dan thanks him.)

Wow! It’s really old home week. Our next guest is one of the original co-hosts of The Sound of Young America. He has, for decades now, been a reality television producer; and he’s clearly wearing a Los Angeles Dodgers t-shirt to taunt me: my old friend, Gene O’Neill. Hi, Gene, how are you?

Gene O’Neill: Hi, Jesse.

Jesse Thorn: It’s great to see you, bud.

Gene O’Neil: Good to see you!

Jesse Thorn: We were talking about this when we were recording— We’re gonna have a special episode of Bullseye that comes out that will be hosted by you, me, and Jordan. And when we were recording that, one of the things that we talked about was that you and I met in the core class for Porter College at UC Santa Cruz. This was the class that everyone who was at this residential college had to take together their freshman year. We were in the same class, and the thing that I remember most about that class is you telling me, later, that you thought I was either drunk or high the entire time.

(They laugh and Gene confirms.)

Tell me why you thought that, Gene.

(A beep.)

Gene O’Neill: Well, as you recall—you know, it was kind of a hippie school. It was a place where you either wore a corduroy pants or hemp clothes. Guys would wear their robes a lot everywhere. And you had a very kind of uptown way of dressing.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) When you say uptown, you mean that I dress like Morris Day? Or?

(They laugh.)

Gene: O’Neill: You would wear like suits a lot.

[00:30:00]

But then you would also wear these like really big, throwback basketball sneakers. You just had a sort of style of dress I had never seen before. And then you had a kind of a very… maybe arts-school-mannered way of speaking that I thought was very funny, by the way. You were just very different from everybody else. And yeah. I don’t know why, but I just thought, “Man, this guy does a lot of drugs, and I need to hang out with him.”

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: I’m glad to hear that! I mean, I just thought you were—as I still feel—one of the funniest people I had ever met. You were also a very reluctant performer. I think when I enlisted you and Jordan into The Sound of Young America, there were times when even being in the radio studio felt like a lot of performing to you.

Gene O’Neill: Uh, yeah. I mean, maybe it felt natural to you guys. I guess that’s what you guys felt; like, you guys were just being yourselves. I kind of felt like I was living and dying with everything I said. Yyyeah. Just like, every time— You know, you’re trying to be funny on the radio, and I just felt like I had a lot of whiffs. Or at least, I remembered the whiffs way more than I remembered the hits. And it just felt like it was killing me, doing radio. Like, it was just torture doing it.

And you guys were just so funny! Like, you and Jordan just had such great chemistry together. You guys bounced off each other so well. I just kind of felt like, you know, I was like the Pete Best or the Shemps, you know?

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) I mean, I always thought you were kind of a Shemp, but not because—

(Gene laughs.)

It was purely physical, Gene. Exclusively! (Laughs.)

Gene O’Neill: Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we all physically wanna be compared to Shemp.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: One of the things that I couldn’t believe when I met you—as a Northern Californian—was that you grew up in the valley, here in Southern California; and you grew up with family in showbusiness. And when I say in showbusiness, I don’t mean like the kind of in showbusiness that people might imagine—you know, like lion tamer or whatever; movie star. You know?

(They chuckle.)

But like your parents had the normal-est, most amazing showbusiness jobs in the world. Which was like one day you were just like, “Oh yeah, my parents wrote for Hercules: The Legendary Journeys.”

(They laugh.)

Gene O’Neill: Did that reveal live up to “they had the most amazing job in showbusiness?” (Laughing.) Writers for Hercules: The Legendary Journey?

Jesse Thorn: Couldn’t believe it! But then when I found out that your dad was in The Stuff!

Gene O’Neill: Yeah, that’s true. Dad had a few bit parts in some bad ‘80s horror movies.

Jesse Thorn: What do you think you learned from having parents who were screenwriters, and—you know—middle class screenwriters. Like, ones who worked but weren’t, you know, Joe Eszterhas or whatever. (Chuckles.) That’s the best I could come up with for celebrity screenwriter.

Gene O’Neill: Well, what’s funny was— I guess the two things I learned was because when I was young, they were writing. And then they got like they got laid off. They were writing for like General Hospital. And then they did not work for like a very, very long time. It was just very hard for them to find a show. So, we kind of very quickly went from like looking like we were a family with money to a family with no money and living with that anxiety of, you know, where is money gonna come from?

Jesse Thorn: Because your parents were a writing team.

Gene O’Neill: Yeah, they were a writing team. And so, I kind of grew up a little resentful of their choice of vocation. ‘Cause I just thought like, “Why don’t you guys just get jobs that pay you something every year, rather than trying to hit a home run with writing?” And I thought to myself, “I would never do this. Like, this is just— There’s way too much insecurity in this.” And then, you know. Lo and behold, like when I graduated from college, I had realized that’s what I wanted to do is I wanted to try to be a writer.

The other thing I had learned was to resent the existence of reality television.

(Jesse laughs.)

‘Cause I remember when Survivor first came out, my parents were just like, “Ugh!” Like, reality shows were a bad word in the house. We actually were not— You were not allowed to watch a reality TV show in the house.

(Jesse laughs.)

‘Cause to them that was like, “This is what’s taking, you know, food off of our plate is these shows.”

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: And now you’ve worked on Big Brother for 20 years. (Laughs.)

Gene O’Neill: And now, yeah. Right. And once I couldn’t really quite make it as a writer, I now work as a reality TV show producer. So, I learned both of those lessons from my parents! Thank you.

Jesse Thorn: Well, Gene, I heard the tone that means that we’re out of time. It’s always nice to see you.

Gene O’Neill: Hey, all the time I need, baby!

(They giggle.)

Jesse Thorn: I wish you nothing but the best and the Dodgers nothing but the worst.

Gene O’Neill: Okay. Thank you, Jesse. I would take it if you flipped that. You can wish me the worst and wish the Dodgers the best.

[00:35:00]

Jesse Thorn: Gene, I wish the Dodgers the best with their collapse.

Gene O’Neill: Okay. (Laughs.) Alright. Thank you, Jesse.

Jesse Thorn: Gene O’Neill, original co-host of The Sound of Young America.

Our next guest is another past co-host of this program. In that one summer where Jordan went away to college and I was terrified to go behind a microphone by myself. I invited this man down to Santa Cruz to guest host The Sound of Young America with me. He’s been my friend ever since. He is of course, a past Daily Show correspondent. He is an actor on most television shows.

Al Madrigal: All the shows.

Jesse Thorn: He just wrapped a Disney show with Jon Favreau. he just produced a special with the comedian Vince Caldera. And! he’s doing standup comedy. Al Madrigal.

(A beep.)

Al Madrigal: Tonight! Tonight. Tonight.

Jesse Thorn: How are you doing now?

Al Madrigal: I’m doing great. Great to see you. This is quite the challenge. So, every five minutes, somebody’s coming in, knocking ’em out.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah.

Al Madrigal: You’re doing it. You did it to yourself.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, I did. (Laughs.) These are all people I emailed. What did you think it was gonna be like when you drove to Santa Cruz to do The Sound of Young America with me.

Al Madrigal: That’s hilarious, ‘cause—you know, coming from San Francisco to get to Santa Cruz, you’re going up the 17. It’s kind of treacherous.

Jesse Thorn: It’s a terrifying freeway.

Al Madrigal: I remember actually driving a car, and it wasn’t— ‘Cause we had clients up there. I was working for my parents’ family business while I was doing standup comedy also. So—

Jesse Thorn: So, you were still a professional person who fired people.

Al Madrigal: Fire-er. Correct. That’s what it is. A professional hatchet man. If you saw Up in the Air, I did that. And so, we had people in Santa Cruz and I remember driving up the 17 and going, “Oh, there must be a forest fire.” And it was my gearbox!

Jesse Thorn: Oh no!

Al Madrigal: Yeah. So, I was driving a car on fire up the 17. And so, you’d think that would’ve stopped me, and I would never go up there again. But I love it up there! I mean, you— So, Capitola, Aptos, and Santa Cruz. It’s all very nice. It’s a lovely area.

Jesse Thorn: Felton, Ben Lomond. We could do this all day! (Laughs.)

Al Madrigal: Sure! Yes. A little meth-y.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. True. That’s fair.

Al Madrigal: But great. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Monterey Bay Aquarium.

Al Madrigal: A lot of street rats, but lovely.

Jesse Thorn: Can I tell you what happened the first time I drove over the 17?

Al Madrigal: What?

Jesse Thorn: I didn’t learn to drive until I was 20. I’m a native San Franciscan. I’m from the mission. I just took the bus. But I was tired of this— You had to— To get out of Santa Cruz, you had to take an Amtrak bus over the Santa Cruz mountains to get to San Jose, and then you could go somewhere, if you were on public transit. So, I finally decided I’m gonna learn to drive and buy a car. And the first time that I drove over the 17 in this 1982 El Camino that I invested my money in, I saw lights behind me. It’s nighttime. I didn’t know what to do. I went too far, then finally found a turnoff. There are not a lot of turnoffs on the 17 either.

Finally found a too-small cul-de-sac off the side of the road, pulled over. Cop pulls over behind me. First thing he says is, “Why did you take so long to pull over?”

I said, “I’m sorry. I didn’t know how getting pulled over works.” (Snorts.) I said that.

Then he said, “Are you drunk?”

And I said, “No sir, I’m just bad at driving.” (Laughs.)

Al Madrigal: That’s great.

Jesse Thorn: And I didn’t get a ticket!

Al Madrigal: You shouldn’t have.

Jesse Thorn: I feel like you are, because— You know, Bill Withers started doing music professionally when he was like 30, when he got out of the Navy. You started doing standup at like 27 or something like that.

Al Madrigal: 28, yeah. Just as I’m about to turn 28 was right when I started.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: And I think there is a big difference if you are pursuing something that you started as a grownup. You know what I mean? Like, a real grownup.

Al Madrigal: Sure. You take it a lot more seriously, I think. And I needed that time anyway. I was like—you know— ADD, C student that just really needed time to figure it out. So, it was great. I love it.

Jesse Thorn: Can I tell you what you told me one time, and you can tell me if it sounds insane coming outta my mouth? You were working on the Daily Show and living in Los Angeles. Daily Show shoots in New York.

Al Madrigal: Commuting back and forth, killing myself. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: You were flying back and forth twice a week so that you could go Monday through Thursday at the Daily Show and then come home over the weekend. And I said, “How’s that going, Al?” And I said, “It must be hard flying back and forth.”

And you said, “It’s great. It gives me time to work on screenplays.”

(Al confirms with a laugh.)

Yeah. (Laughs.) Does it sound insane coming outta my mouth, though?

Al Madrigal: Yeah, it does. It does. It was insane. Yeah. Lovely seeing you. Congratulations. I left it a little message for you out there.

Jesse Thorn: Oh, thank you! I’m grateful to have been the beneficiary of so much of your hard work. And it’s always really good to see you.

[00:40:00]

Al Madrigal: You are a friend for life. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. Al, give your family a hug. Al Madrigal!

Our next guest on the program, as we continue what I now realize is only the first hour of this operation, is another guy I went to college with. Look, I had to email 50 people to get 25 yeses. So, a lot of people I went to college with were on that list. He is a celebrated painter of popular art. Some of his most famous works include, “Nobody Wants to Play Sega with Harrison Ford”, “The Jerry Orbach Car”. And you can find so much of his work online, at BrandonBird.com. Painter, Brandon Bird.

Hi, Brandon. How are you?

Brandon Bird: Hey, Jesse, how you going?

Jesse Thorn: I’m well—

Brandon Bird: (In confusion.) How you going?! Is that what I said?!

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. I’m going goodly.

(Brandon laughs.)

What is the current state of the Orbach car?

Brandon Bird: Unfortunately, I just dismantled it.

Jesse Thorn: For years, you had a car that was like a— What was it, a Ford Crown Vic?

(A beep.)

Brandon Bird: Yeah, it was a Crown Vic with a— Picture a Crown Vic with like a—I think the exact color was Aztec Gold. Like, a two-layered gold paint job, covered with artwork of Jerry Orbach, in tribute to who I think is one of the greatest people ever lived.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, you’ve always been a fan of Jerry Orbach.

Brandon Bird: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it’s a meditation on mortality. And unfortunately, cars don’t last forever, (chuckling.) so it got really unsafe to drive. And then it stopped driving at all. And I was like, “What do I do with this thing?” So, just in the last week, popped the doors off, popped the hood off, popped the— What’s the thing in the back of the trunk? Popped those off. I’ve saved the artwork on those, but the rest of the car got towed away. And I guess if you go to the Pick-n-Pull in Monrovia—

(They laugh.)

—you get to pull a part off the Jerry Orbach car.

Jesse Thorn: Somebody who’s looking for a dashboard that matches their Jerry Orbach car in the Pick-n-Pull is gonna be really excited.

Brandon Bird: Well, the dash stop working. That’s one of the reasons it was very unsafe was that you had to kind of guess your speed and whether you had gas. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: You really did— I mean, when you conceived of this car, which was funded through an early Kickstarter—

(Brandon confirms.)

—it was not conceived to be your everyday mode of conveyance. You had, I believe, a Toyota Matrix at the time.

Brandon Bird: It was a Mazda3.

Jesse Thorn: Mazda3. There you go.

Brandon Bird: Mazda speed.

Jesse Thorn: You were driving a Mazda at the time. But I remember this moment where your life changed forever.

(They laugh.)

Which was when you scraped up the bottom of your car.

Brandon Bird: Oh, right! ‘Cause I went to MaxFun Con! And it had just happened, and I didn’t have— The Orbach car wasn’t finished. So, I was like, “Somebody else whose going has to like give me a ride.” And you arranged all that. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: And you realized this Orbach car is not gonna be—

Brandon Bird: Yeah, so while— Like, in my mind I was like, “I have a normal car, and then I’ll have this funny art car, which may or may not turn out.” I didn’t know if it was gonna look cool or stupid or what. ‘Cause it could have been like a bad tattoo that I had to drive around in. It ended up looking great. Like, the airbrush guys—oh my god. It looked awesome. And yeah, my normal carjacks got totaled. And I was like, “Well, technically I have another car.” And I was like, “I’ll just see how it goes just having this be my car for a while.” (Laughing.) And it just kept being my car.

Jesse Thorn: How long did you drive it? 10 years?

Brandon Bird: Not that long. (beat.) 25 years.

Jesse Thorn: 25. (Chuckles.) I think it was close to 10 years, Brandon.

Brandon Bird: Yeah, actually, I remember the Kickstarter was 2016; now it’s 20—yeah. The Kickstarter was almost nine years ago. But it was made in 2017, I think. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Were you prepared, when it became your everyday car, for what that meant for your lifestyle?

Brandon Bird: Uh, no.

Jesse Thorn: Because, when you drive an Aztec Gold flake painted low rider that has Jerry Orbach on the hood and doors, it comes with certain responsibilities.

(They laugh.)

Brandon Bird: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. I think the weirdest reactions I got were people who were like, “What a cool car!” And they had no idea who it was. They didn’t even register. They were just like, “That’s a cool car!” Like, people would go, “Can I buy it?!”

And I’d be like, “Do you like Jerry Orbach?”

They’d be like, “Who?”

(Jesse giggle.)

Or people’d go, “What a cool taxi, man!”

And like sometimes cops would really like it, ’cause it was a former cop car. You know, an instrument of destruction that was turned into an instrument of peace. (Wistfully.) I’m just reflecting back on the memories.

(They laugh.)

Although truthfully, the car itself was kind of a piece of (censor beep).

[00:45:00]

And if I had to do it over again—and I do want to do another Jerry Orbach car—

Jesse Thorn: You specifically wanna do another Jerry Orbach car?

Brandon Bird: Well, yeah.

Jesse Thorn: You’re not gonna pivot to Ice-T or something.

Brandon Bird: I mean, the license plate I was ORBACH-1. You know, inspired by the ECTO-1, of course. Every kid wants a custom car. And that’s— I think this helped me live out that fantasy.

Jesse Thorn: What’s the next car gonna be?

Brandon Bird: ORBACH-2!

Jesse Thorn: But have you thought about— They don’t—you can’t just go buy one of those cop cars anymore. Like, there was a time when you could, but—

Brandon Bird: Yeah, yeah. What I’m thinking is like doing a fundraiser maybe in phases, and like first get the vehicle, and then let the vehicle decide—like, the type of vehicle—decide what kind of art goes on it. Like, if it’s a Prius, then it could be a bunch of kind of those— Do you remember like in the ‘90s like Earth Day murals?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah.

(A beep.)

Brandon Bird: Like, a rainforest with like Jerry Orbach with like a koala or something.

Jesse Thorn: Oh, but see, it would still have Jerry Orbach there.

Brandon Bird: Oh yeah! They’d all—yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like a surf van with like cool, surf Jerry Orbach imagery. Like, because half of it is about Jerry, half of it is about kind of like car culture and car medium, I guess. Because that’s what I like to do with art is like pop culture stuff, but also like—you know—play around with like the form and the styles. And there lots of different like art car styles.

Jesse Thorn: Brandon, I wish you—

Brandon Bird: I’d like to do ORBACH-2.

Jesse Thorn: I wish you all the luck in the world with ORBACHs 2-12. Aaall the future Orbachs that may be in your life. And I look forward to the overrun in fundraising that will allow me to drive the Ice-T car.

(Brandon laughs.)

Thank you for joining me. Brandon Bird, the original painter of light!

Brandon Bird: Pleasure to be here.

Jesse Thorn: You can find him online, at BrandonBird.com.

I think our next guest is up here inside this computer. He is a radio producer, an author, and a host who you might have heard on This American Life. He is best known as the host of the incredible podcast Heavyweight, which began on Gimlet but can now be heard on Pushkin Industries. Mr. Jonathan Goldstein joining me, perhaps, from… Canada? Where do you live these days, Jonathan?

Jonathan Goldstein: I’m in Minnesota, which is like the Canada of America.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) How are you doing? Gosh, your beard looks gorgeous!

Jonathan Goldstein: I just kind of— I’ve kind of given up.

Jesse Thorn: (Chortles.) How have you been feeling about being buffeted by the winds of change in the podcasting industry? I mean, your show was mint-one of a pile that came to an end at Gimlet. And you were sort of up in the air for a while.

Jonathan Goldstein: Yeah, we were. I never fully understood why they bothered with us. it just seemed easier to have, you know, these four-hour podcasts where they just record— Like, you know, the thing that I’m doing is like these audio documentaries that sometimes take years for an episode. So, I was just happy for as long as it lasted. I feel a little like the canary in the coal mine or something. I’m hoping this works, for all of our sakes.

Jesse Thorn: Were you terrified that you had come to the end of the line for careers for people who made sound-rich audio fancy stuff?

Jonathan Goldstein: Well, I will say that it doesn’t take much to terrify me.

(Jesse laughs.)

I mean, if the doorbell or the phone rings— I’m terrified right now. I minimized the screen, so it doesn’t feel as intense. I mean, I feel like I would just keep doing it. You know? When I first met you, when you were just a little boy— I mean, I remember I had just moved into a storage—it was a storage closet that they had told me was my new office at the CBC. And you know, I was just doing my own thing in this little storage room off the newsroom, and no one really understood it. You did! And you connected me with a lot of people that ended up being on the show. But I don’t know. I’d probably just keep doing it.

I mean, I was recording after the show was canceled. I don’t know. I feel a little bit—like I’ve said, I feel like an outsider artist or something who just kind of got lucky.

Jesse Thorn: Do you feel secure right now?

Jonathan Goldstein: Like, just in life or career-wise?

Jesse Thorn: Career-wise, professionally. But also in life! I’ll take in life as well.

Jonathan Goldstein: Okay. Yeah, I feel okay. I got the beard. I’m in the Midwest. I’m in like in a red track suit, you know?

[00:50:00]

Got the world on the chain.

Jesse Thorn: Now, you do look good. You’re looking great.

Jonathan Goldstein: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I think I feel— I feel just lucky to be doing it again.

Jesse Thorn: There were a couple of times that I went to the public radio conferences and found myself just glomming onto someone. There was a year that I glommed on to you, and you had come down from Canada; you were still living in Canada at the time and doing Wiretap. And I was so grateful to have someone to bother who also didn’t feel like they belonged there. (Laughs.)

Jonathan Goldstein: Aw, that’s really nice to hear. It’s so funny; I remember that conference in particular. I was there. My whole—all I had was—the CBC had sent me there with a life-sized, standup poster of myself—

(Jesse laughs.)

—that I just stood beside feeling very uncomfortable and begging people to take these handmade CDs that I had. And I thought you had it really together, because you were handing out these candies that said “America’s sweetheart” or “your radio sweetheart.”

Jesse Thorn: That might be true! That sounds like something I would do.

Jonathan Goldstein: And I thought, man, this guy! Like, I didn’t bring any candy—

Jesse Thorn: Like, I wanna be clear: it didn’t work. Like, I don’t want you to misapprehend the situation. It was a failure. But…

(A beep.)

Jonathan, it’s really nice to see. I hope I’ll see you down here in Los Angeles sometime soon.

Jonathan Goldstein: I would love that. It’s so nice to see you too. And if you’re ever in the Twin Cities, please—you know. You let me know.

Jesse Thorn: Okay, we’ll see you up there. Jonathan Goldstein, podcasting legend and genius.

Transition: Bright, playfully, brassy synth.

Jesse Thorn: We’ve gotta go to a quick break, but don’t worry! We are— Oh, wow. (Laughs.) Barely a third of the way through all these guests. I’m gonna grab some water. Back in a bit. It’s Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR.

(ADVERTISEMENT)

 

Promo:

Music: Plucky orchestral music.

Mark Gagliardi: Ready, go.

Hal Lublin: Knock, knock.

Mark: Who’s there?

Hal: We Got This.

Mark: With Mark and Hal?!

Hal: Oh, you knew this one! (Giggles.)

Mark: (Sighs.) We can’t put that out as an ad.

Hal: We just did! New episodes every week on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, it’s hewn in rock!

Mark: Hewn in rock!?

Hal: Yeah! (Chuckle.)

Mark: How do you hew something in rock?!

Hal: With a chisel.

Mark: There’s only one “hue” in rock, and it’s Huey Lewis. (Chuckles at himself.)

Hal: And the news is: We Got This with Mark and Hal is available every week on MaximumFun.org!

Mark: (Flatly.) I walked right into that.

(They break into quiet laughter.)

(Music.)

 

Transition: Thumpy synth with light vocalizations.

Jesse Thorn: Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. This whole month, we are celebrating 25 years of Bullseye being a program. We have saved the best for last. We’re presenting a marathon of interviews recorded back-to-back at our studios in Los Angeles, California.

[00:55:00]

All in all, we did 25 interviews! We’re bringing them to you now as a very special podcast episode. Let’s get right back into it.

Transition: Fun synth.

Jesse Thorn: And my next guest on the program is someone who has my job, but does it better over there on KCRW, on the west side of Los Angeles. He is, of course, a legendary culture critic in addition to being a legendary radio host and an occasional film and television producer. He’s the host of The Treatment on KCRW, Elvis Mitchell.

Hi, Elvis. How are you?

Elvis Mitchell: How are you? I’m happy to be here for a… terrifying live broadcast (unclear) are what we call these kinds of things nowadays.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) What is the most terrified that you’ve been to be on the radio?

Elvis Mitchell: The first year of my show, first couple years we did it live. And I’m not gonna mention this person. The first— And it was really fun, ’cause you know, when it’s live, you own it. People always show up and go, “Wait, it’s live?!” And it was 28 minutes of live radio. So, it was terrific.

Jesse Thorn: And 28 minutes is a length of time live on the radio that is both a lot of time to fill—so, it’s terrifying in that sense—and also, it’s short enough that you have to be good the whole time, or you’re doing a bad job. (Laughs.)

Elvis Mitchell: Well, I’m gonna manage that other part someday. (Laughs.) But the fun thing was people always think of it being seven or eight minutes. But no, we go straight through. We didn’t do a break in those days. We went straight through. And this one person—and it was a director. And I’ll give you a clue; he’s a white man, so I shouldn’t give him away.

(Jesse affirms.)

Just was—wouldn’t answer anything; would talk about camera mounts or lighting placement, but when I tried to ask him about motivation, he goes—at one point he just goes, “Well, who listens to the show anyway?”

I just said, “Well, a lot fewer people than when we started.”

(Jesse cackles.)

And remember that those five seconds after “well, who listens to the show anyway?”, and it was like the longest five seconds of my life. And I thought, “Well, they won’t cancel us until after we’re over. So, it’s fine.”

Jesse Thorn: I mean, my experience doing this show all these years is that at some point I was just like, “Oh, right. Whoever it is that’s on is just a guy or a lady or whatever. You know, they just happened to have made something wonderful.” I never had the experience of like someone big-timing me for real or someone not responding to me being a person to them by being a person to me. You know, some people better than others, obviously. But there are still times when I have been scared sitting across from someone.

Elvis Mitchell: Who scares you?

Jesse Thorn: Bill Withers scared me.

Elvis Mitchell: See, I love Bill Withers, ’cause he immediately like put his hand on my knee and just started talking to me like an uncle. And I heard that pause and thought, “Oh, he’s a stutterer.” Like, I heard it, ’cause I grew up around enough stutterers to know that hesitation and that sort of breath. But then he just sort of got past it, and ’cause I— Bill Withers, I just started going on about this song he did called “Harlem”, which is the B side.

(Jesse hums the tune.)

Jim Keltner on drums, as a matter of fact, it’s the B side of “Ain’t No Sunshine”.

I said, “I always thought that was the greatest song I’d ever heard. It’s like a piece of theatre. It’s three acts, and each act builds up, and it finally,” I said, “it’s an incredible resolution.”

He goes, “Are you outta your mind?” He was like, “It’s on the other side of ‘Ain’t No Sunshine’!”

(Jesse laughs.)

“Of course, the label wanted that to be the first single, and I said they were wrong.”

I thought, “Oh, okay.” But I loved him.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Elvis Mitchell, host of The Treatment. It’s a lot like this show, but better.

Elvis Mitchell: (Scoffing.) Oh, please.

Jesse Thorn: It’s always nice to see you.

My next guests on the program are a standup comedy duo. Thank you, Elvis! They’re the co-hosts of Dumb People Town. They are gonna be working on the new Kevin Hart and Keenan Thompson sports show, called Good Sports, which is premiering in mid-November. One of them, Randy, joining me here in the studio. One of them, Jason, joining me from a girl’s soccer tournament?

Randy Sklar: (Scoffing.) He was golfing.

Jason Sklar: No, I’m out. I’m fine. I’m my kitchen.

Randy Sklar: Cross-country.

Jason Sklar: Okay. I sound okay, I hope.

Randy Sklar: You sound great. Can I just say? Elvis has left the building. I thought you were gonna say it, or I was gonna say it. Someone needed to say it.

Jason Sklar: No.

Randy Sklar: Jay, I’m so sad you’re not here, ’cause the green room or just the hangout area—first of all, there’s pizza that I should not be eating. There is flavored seltzer. Every single person that I love is out there right now, which is really a testament to you. But it was

Jason Sklar: Terry Gross is ripping bong hits. It’s unbelievable.

Randy Sklar: No. (Laughs.) Come on. It was me and Paul Scheer and Rob Heubel talking about One Battle After Another with Elvis Mitchell.

(Jesse laughs.)

Which I—do you understand what that’s—?

Jason Sklar: Ohhh my god. That should be a show.

Randy Sklar: Okay? That would be like talking to Quentin Tarantino about feet.

Jesse Thorn: Can I just say?

(A beep.)

I’m glad that I booked you two guys. ‘Cause with a lot of the other guests on the show, I have to ask questions.

Randy Sklar: No! There’s nothing! Watch out, now! There’s nothing.

Jason Sklar: No. You wind us up, we go. Watch out now.

(They laugh.)

Randy Sklar: Watch us— Watch this guy. I’m just saying this whole experience is amazing.

[01:00:00]

And I can’t believe that… I can’t believe we’re raising money for Kamala to run again next time with this. Is that happening?

Jason Sklar: I know, that’s so— No? That’s not what’s happening?

Randy Sklar: That’s not what this?

Jesse Thorn: That’s not what this is.

Jason Sklar: That’s not what this is for?

Randy Sklar: I was given— Jay, I was given weird information on this. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: It’s not what we’re doing here.

Jason Sklar: Bizarre.

Randy Sklar: Okay. But we’re getting Bernie Sanders with this.

Jesse Thorn: Okay. I’m gonna— Hopefully I’ll get in a question here. I have never known anyone who is more enthusiastic about filling air with every joke that they’ve ever thought of than the two of you.

(They laugh.)

Randy Sklar: I mean…

Jesse Thorn: I sometimes think maybe Dana Gould remembers more jokes that he’s thought of in the past. He always seems to have every joke he’s ever thought of at hand. But in terms of that, plus new jokes, I think the two of you fill— Now, there’s two of you; it’s no fair.

(They agree.)

But do you ever run out of steam at different times, and alienate each other?

(They laugh.)

Randy Sklar: Yeah, we do. I mean, we’re normal, but I would say we love this. We live for this. Like, we love making jokes and being funny with each other. Again, Jay, I’m sorry you weren’t here. But like, that area hanging out there was just joke-joke-joke-joke-joke, in the most fun, loving, sweet, funny way. It’s like our love language with all of our friends. Like, how do we— Our buddy, Brad Meltzer, author—fantastic author—got an action figure of himself sent to him, and he sent a picture to a text chain of me and Jason and two other friends. And Jay just—(chuckles.) I mean, it’s your joke, so.

Jason Sklar: I said, “That’s so cool that you got an inaction figure.” ‘Cause he’s not the most active guy!

Randy Sklar: He’s not the most active guy. But it was like—we can’t stop. Like, that’s not for anybody. That’s not for air. That’s just with our friends in that way. And it just is— I love it. I mean, I’ve raised two kids that are funny. And so, like it’s how we love each other is by making jokes. It’s like when my wife and I are fighting, like if somebody tells a joke, we can get us out of it. It’s just like this cheat code to life. So, when we’re with our friends, it’s like the most fun in the world. I love it.

Jesse Thorn: When your families are together—which is to say, Randy, when your family is with Jason’s family, when the families are together in that way—do your spouses have to tell you to can it?

(Randy laughs.)

Jason Sklar: No.

Randy Sklar: No. I think they like it. And you know, we just come up with— You know, also, when people in my family make us laugh, I’m always—at times—beautifully surprised by it. My oldest daughter—no, my youngest daughter; if she says something that makes me laugh, it is the greatest thing, ’cause I’m not seeing it coming. ‘Cause that’s not her; that’s not what she trades in. And so, when it comes, it’s so great. Jay’s son is hilarious in a way that is like 16-year-old boy living in LA on the cutting edge of life and just media—not media, but like social—you know, kind of pop culture and whatever it is. He’s so—

Jesse Thorn: He’s bussin’.

Randy Sklar: He’s bussin’!

Jason Sklar: He’s straight bussin’.

Randy Sklar: He’s straight bussin’.

Jason Sklar: Yeah. He’s very funny. I mean, he’ll come up with like six/seven jokes per day.

Randy Sklar: (Scoffing.) Oh, come on. (Laughs.)

Jason Sklar: Alright. I’m not doing it. Uh, no. It is really funny. My kids are super funny, and they know how to get at me. In my family, it’s very roast-y. There was like one time where we were on a family vacation, and my daughter was like, “Let’s roast each other!”

And I was like, “Well, this’ll end poorly.”

(They laugh.)

Randy Sklar: It’s not gonna—

Jason Sklar: And it did. It was like two funny jokes for everyone, and then it just got super mean.

Jesse Thorn: Can I tell you that the first time my now wife came over to my father’s house when we were teenagers—we were maybe 18? 17/18?—for dinner, she left; and I saw her the next day, and she was really sad. And I said to her, “Why are you so sad? What’s wrong Theresa?”

And she said, “I’m worried that your family don’t like each other.”

(They cackle.)

Randy Sklar: You’re like, “No, this is how we—”

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, this is how we express our—

Randy Sklar: “We yell in loving yelling at each other.”

Jason Sklar: Yeah. What you see as our weakness is our strength. Like, the health of the family.

Randy Sklar: Yeah. I just remember during the pandemic, we took an RV for some stupid reason around like Colorado and Utah to national parks and all that other stuff. And the RV—

(A beep.)

Like, the air conditioning could only go like 10 degrees lower than what it was. And it was 108 outside.

(Jesse laughs.)

So, it’s 98. We’re in an RV. We’re like near Arches National Park, and we’re just sitting inside the RV sweating. And it had been like a year and a half in the pandemic. And my oldest daughter said, “Sooo, lemme get this straight. We have been in the house with each other for a year and a half, and you guys thought it’d be a good idea to get into a smaller space for two weeks?”

(They laugh.)

[01:05:00]

And I was like, “I love you.” And then we all sweated it out.

Jesse Thorn: Randy, Jason, it’s always great to see you. Thank you so much.

Randy Sklar: Love you, buddy. Congratulations.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. You guys are tops.

Our next guest on the program is a standup comic. She has a special out on dropout called Four Pills in April. It came out in April. It’s great! She just played the Steppenwolf Theater in Chicago, Illinois. She is fresh from the plane.

Cameron Esposito: I am, yeah. Hi.

Jesse Thorn: And her hair looks incredible.

(Cameron thanks him with surprise.)

As always. Cameron Esposito. Hi, Cam, how are you?

Cameron Esposito: Hi, Jesse! Oh my god, you know what I am? I’m seven months pregnant. Do you know this?

Jesse Thorn: Congratulations! So, I only heard about this… 10 minutes ago?!

(A beep.)

(They laugh.)

Cameron Esposito: Yeah! Well, it was— You know, it’s like one of those things; you keep it like close to the vest for a while, and then you’re like really showing, and it’s kind of the moment to talk about it.

Jesse Thorn: Well, you’re wearing one of these pregnancy stomach garments.

Cameron Esposito: Yeah. Well, this is like— These are like yoga shorts. Here. Can you see?

(Jesse confirms before dissolving into giggles.)

Because there’s like pregnancy yoga shorts, because all pregnancy pants that have these things attached? I find that they made me feel like my stomach was actually being pulled off my body in a downward direction, and it was not as sweet as you would want it to be. (Laughs.) Plus, you know, I’m doing my own thing in terms of, uh… tender stuff.

Jesse Thorn: Was this always your plan? Did you always intend to bear a child at some point in your life?

Cameron Esposito: No! No, no, no, no, no. I was hoping to trick a woman into doing it for me. You know what I mean? Or any human, just any human that might—that I might be able to either afford to pay or that might marry me or wanna have a kid with me. But no, it’s, uh… weirdly, Jesse? I have a body that is like… good for this? It’s so the luck of the draw; there’s no like merit or prep that’s required. I just went in and started having the appointments. And I kept waiting for someone to stop me and be like, “You don’t have the right jackets for this.” You know what I mean?

(They laugh.)

Or like gender identity? But that’s not what happened. It was like, I kept going to these appointments, and they were like, “Yeah, you’re good to go.”

Especially with my age. I’m 43. I thought like— I didn’t think this would be what happened.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, that’s 19 in showbusiness childhood.

Cameron Esposito: It is! It also— I didn’t know this, but your uterus doesn’t change ‘til you’re like— I think it’s 52. So, it’s really just like, “Do you have an egg reserve?” And if you do, because you either do at the moment or like had frozen your eggs or embryos or something. I got into the weeds immediately! This is what your listeners are looking for, right?

Jesse Thorn: The last time I saw you perform, it was a show about your life careening out of control.

(Cameron confirms.)

So, was writing your life after it careened out of control part of what led you to, you know, enter a new phase?

Cameron Esposito: Yes, of course. I mean, look at you. You’ve been doing this a long time. You know how people are! Yeah. I had this special, Four Pills, that was about my experience being diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 40. And what I found was that, because I’ve always been chasing these short-term dreams and had the energy to do so—like, that’s part of having bipolar disorder is tons of ideas and then the energy to do so, right? Mania produces in the brain the same chemicals as cocaine. So, you can really maybe understand that, with that, what I’m talking about.

But medicated and stabilized, I could think for the first time about long-term goals. It’s just like—that just alluded me. I didn’t understand how people made long-term plans. Does that make sense?

Jesse Thorn: It does. And I mean, I think also to some extent, you know, you’re running into showbusiness. I’ve never knew you to be anything but headlong running into showbusiness things.

(Cameron confirms.)

You’re also running away from, you know, being closeted as a teen.

(Cameron confirms.)

You know? Like, that’s a lot of running, and it’s hard to stop when both of those things are happening at the same time, and you’re bipolar.

Cameron Esposito: Well, I mean— I would say that it’s like actually impossible to stop, right? Because it’s not— Again, it’s not like a moral good or like even a choice that is made.

[01:10:00]

When I first was diagnosed, what they said is the experience of having bipolar disorder is that you go through life as if driven by a motor. And this is what you’re talking about. And we’ve known each other for a long time. This can be super positive! Like, if you’re in a creative field, if you’re a businessperson, if you are in politics? Being able to treat life like you’ve gotten on a rollercoaster and are just strapped in can be really helpful.

Jesse Thorn: And it’s very thrilling.

Cameron Esposito: It’s very thrilling! And also, like you get a lot done! (Laughs.) Like, if you’re moving way faster than everybody else, you get a lot done. But yeah, I think that the absence or like the pain of it can just be lack of choices, which I feel like I have now.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Wow.

Cameron Esposito: Is that us?!

Jesse Thorn: That’s us.

Cameron Esposito: Wow! (Sarcastically.) We got into sooo much. Classic us! Jesse, congratulations. You’re the best. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. It’s great to see you.

Cameron Esposito: It’s great to see you!

Jesse Thorn: Cameron Esposito. Four Pills is her brand new special, and congratulations on this baby! I’m excited about this!

(Cameron thanks him.)

Our next guest on the program was a founding member of the comedy troupe Human Giant. He’s been on The Office, The League, Parks and Recreation. He’s on the podcast Dark Web with Paul Scheer: Mr. Rob Huebel. Hello, Robert. How are you sir?

Rob Huebel: Jesse, pleasure to be here. Congratulations.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you!

Rob Huebel: Am I supposed to say that? Do you say that?

Jesse Thorn: I’m grateful to hear it! I’m grateful— (Laughing.) I’m grateful to anyone who respects me and my work.

Rob Huebel: Jesse, everybody respects you. I mean, you have a— I don’t wanna spoil who’s out there in the lobby, but it’s like a who’s-who of the biz.

Jesse Thorn: Barack Obama’s out there. We should mention Barack Obama.

Rob Huebel: Sully Sullenberger.

(Jesse cackles.)

Balloon boy. You know, all those kids that were trapped in that cave. And—

Jesse Thorn: Louie Couture is out there! (Laughs.)

Rob Huebel: There’s so many big names. I’m excited. How are you doing?

Jesse Thorn: I’m doing all right. I really enjoy your show, Dark Web, which you do with the great Paul Scheer.

(Rob thanks him.)

It is perfect for ingestion on social media. Because it is basically just the two of you showing awful internet things to each other and making each other react to them.

(A beep.)

Rob Huebel: And it was purely what we did during COVID to kind of get through COVID. We started doing that just for fun. I mean, we still do it just for fun. We don’t make any money, but it was just like, “Oh, this is so weird. Did you see this thing?” You know, it’s just “I hope you saw this. I assume you saw this.” Right? It’s just catching each other up on the weirdest clips that we can find.

Jesse Thorn: Why aren’t you making any money?

Rob Huebel: I don’t know how to make money, really. How do you—? And also, why do I need money? You know?

Jesse Thorn: (Chuckling.) That’s a good point.

Rob Huebel: Why do I need that?

Jesse Thorn: That’s a good point. Might as well just barter!

Rob Huebel: I live off the grid, bro! Yeah, I leave that to Paul. Paul will figure out how to make money off of it, you know.

Jesse Thorn: What’s the most exciting thing that Paul has showed you on the show lately?

Rob Huebel: Oooh! Well. There’s a lot of— I am always, joyful to watch people get hurt doing dumb things, you know?

(Jesse affirms with a laugh.)

But every now and then, it’ll take a kind of a wrong turn. Like, I can’t remember if I had this or Paul had this, but it was a bunch of old people. And they were on like a log. They were all balancing on a log. And suddenly, too many old people were on one end of the log and weren’t balancing the log properly. And they— So the log, you know, seesawed up. And all of the old people went flying off onto the floor. And you know, really, it looked like they got hurt.

(Jesse laughs.)

And you know, you feel bad laughing at it, but— I don’t know.

Jesse Thorn: I feel great!

Rob Huebel: Old people do the craziest things. Yeah.

(Jesse laughs.)

Which by the way, we should make that show: Old People Do the Craziest Things.

Jesse Thorn: You just sold yourself a show on Fox in the year 2000.

Rob Huebel: (Wheeze a laugh.) A hit show.

Jesse Thorn: 1999, right around celebrity boxing.

Rob Huebel: Oh, I can’t wait. On the White House lawn. Yeah. I can’t wait for all that.

Jesse Thorn: You’ve also been touring, doing improv lately!

Rob Huebel: Yeah, we’ve been going on the road, myself and Paul and Edi Patterson from Righteous Gemstones and Rob Riggle and Carl Tart and a bunch of great people. And yeah, it’s just super fun to hit the road and do live improv comedy for people. I feel like right now is a great time for live stuff, and I feel like there’s a real hunger for people to get some relief (chuckles dryly) from the nightmare that we’re all living through. So, in a weird way it’s been very medicinal almost, to go out, and for us to hang out with each other and—

[01:15:00]

—you know, ’cause we’re all old friends—and to do comedy together. But just to see a crowd that’s really fired up for comedy and like really hungry for comedy is super fun right now.

Jesse Thorn: The experience of doing improv can be kind of medicinal as well. I mean, nobody’s doing it for money. I mean, I think even in the like theaters that you guys are playing, because you’re bringing 42 people to perform, I’m sure you’re not taking home a lot of dough.

(Rob confirms.)

But there’s something about that feeling of connection with the other people on stage.

Rob Huebel: For sure. I mean, it sounds really— I’m always nervous to discuss improv, (chuckles) ’cause it sounds sooo dorky. But I’ve been doing it for a long time, and it is sometimes the only thing I look forward to in the week. You know, like I’ll have a crazy week coming up, and I’d be like, “Ough, if I can just make it to Thursday night, you know? I know we have this show at Largo, and it’s gonna be— I get to see everybody.” And yeah, there’s just something, you know, purely playful and magical and joyful about horsing around with your friends, creating a purely imaginary situation. But everybody going along with it and painting that picture together is just—yeah. Magical, sometimes.

Jesse Thorn: To me, there is—of course—the like intoxicating feeling of getting a laugh from an audience. That is a wonderful feeling no matter how you cut it.

(Rob agrees.)

But in improv particularly, part of the magic of it is the feeling of making your friends look good. (Laughs.)

(Rob agrees.)

Like, when you— Like, it’s great if you’re on stage by yourself, and you say a joke, and the audience laughs. It’s great. I’m not putting that down. But it’s so cool to feel like you helped your buddy get over.

Rob Huebel: For sure! That’s a huge part of it is that we all are gonna live and die together.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, Rob, it’s always so nice to see you. And thank you for taking the time to come here and hang out, and thanks for all your support for so many years.

Rob Huebel: Thanks for having me. Congratulations.

Jesse Thorn: Rob Huebel!

Our next guest, as we celebrate 25 years of Bullseye with 25 interviews, is a good friend of Rob’s: his counterpart on Dark Web. He’s one of the hosts of How Did This Get Made?; he’s one of the stars of Dinosaur, the improv show that he tours the nation with, with Rob and Edi Patterson. He is one of the hosts of Unspooled with Amy Nicholson. Paul Scheer. Hi, Paul. How are you?

Paul Scheer: Jesse. Thrilled to be here. You and I are due for a basketball game. We keep on talking about getting to see a basketball game. And WNBA season, obviously over. But I feel like this is gonna be our time.

Jesse Thorn: This is gonna be our time.

Paul Scheer: This is our year.

Jesse Thorn: The Basket Buddies?

Paul Scheer: I feel like it’s gonna happen. By the way, I was actually gonna text you today, because I was gonna offer you a ticket when I’m not in town. ‘Cause I thought you might wanna go; you might wanna bring your kid, have some fun.

Jesse Thorn: My daughter loves basketball. I also love basketball! Basketball’s a great sport.

Paul Scheer: Yeah. Me too! I love it. Can’t wait—

Jesse Thorn: Love the way they dribble up and down the court!

Paul Scheer: It’s so impressive. Here’s the thing I’ll tell you. I have a friend; he has court side seats. I’ve never sat court side in my life. He said to me, “Would you like my seats?”

Jesse Thorn: Like, folding chairs?

Paul Scheer: This was even better. It was behind a scorer’s table. So, the team kept their mints and all their accoutrements out there. I’m watching people pop mints and gum, and they’re right in front— I have like a shot of like James Harden’s (censor beep), because that—

(Jesse laughs.)

Like, he just sat in front of me, and I couldn’t see anything. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: It’s a powerful machine.

Paul Scheer: It was impressive. He also, before the game started, stretched on that same table, and fully had his leg up and reaching down.

(A beep.)

It was impressive to watch someone stretch as good as him. But I sat on that court. And when I tell you I have a different respect for basketball after that? It was like oh! This is a game! Like, you’re up, you’re removed. It’s impressive. It’s obviously great. You watch it on tv; it’s great. But when you’re watching how fast that ball is going? These guys— I know it sounds so stupid, but being that close blew my mind. Like, it ups the skill level.

Jesse Thorn: My daughter is obsessed with a series of YouTube videos where former NBA player Brian Scalabrine, who was a sort of like eighth guy on a lot of basketball teams.

Paul Scheer: White Mamba? Right? That was his name? Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: An NBA basketball player, but a—

[01:20:00]

—not quite a marginal one, but like one step up from a marginal one.

Paul Scheer: But he was famous for being ridiculed relentlessly.

(They laugh.)

Like, that was like a part of his like thing was like, “Ah, look at this guy!” And it’s terrible. He’s also in the 99th percentile of players

Jesse Thorn: And on these videos, he plays—he as a 40-year-old man or however old he is now—plays against guys who just got out of college and played division one basketball and are the superstars of their men’s league. And some of them are big, some of them—all of them are much younger than he is. And he just takes them apart. Like, he just takes them apart. And you realize, “Oh, right. The worst player in the NBA, three or four years after his playing career, is still dramatically better than anyone I’ve ever met in real life who wasn’t an NBA player.”

Paul Scheer: And it’s sooo funny, because you can yell at them and think, “Oh, they’re done! They’re over!” And it’s like yeah, yeah, but they are still the best of the best. I was working with Shaq. I was directing a commercial with Shaquille O’Neal, who is a trip.

Jesse Thorn: A former basketball player.

Paul Scheer: Former basketball player. One of the—a legend of the game, you might even say. (Laughs.) And there was a younger kid who was like a hot prospect, might be going number one next year. And this kid was so cocky about like, “Oh, I can dunk on you. I can dunk on you.”

And you know, Shaq, many years out of—

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, a 57-year-old man or whatever.

Paul Scheer: And I would argue not in the best—not in the best shape. Like, you know, to get on the court. He was like, “No, you can’t. You cannot. I guarantee you, you could not get around me. Like, you’d have to get around me to dunk on me, and you’ll never get around me.”

And I kind of believed him in the sense that like, oh yeah, you’ve done it; you’ve done the time, and you know enough. It may not be like a game to 21, but you could probably shut down this 18-year-old kid pretty easily.

(They chuckle.)

And it’s like—and that’s impressive to me! I was like— And again, I do the thing where whenever I see anyone taller than me, I feel like a child immediately.

(Jesse cackles.)

And I’m like, “Oh! Dad’s gonna beat this guy up! Dad’s gonna do it!”

(They laugh.)

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, that’s just in time. That’s our time, Paul Scheer!

Paul Scheer: I love it! Well, thank you for having me. You’re the best. I will see you soon.

Jesse Thorn: You’re the best friend. Thank you so much for all your years of support and kindness. Paul Scheer, a legend of the game of both basketball and comedy.

Oh, wow! Talk about legends of the game! An old friend of MaximumFun.org; an old friend of Bullseye and The Sound of Young America. He was Buster on Arrested Development, Gary on VEEP; he’s the voice of Forkey! He was just in the beautiful fantasy comedy film Sketch. Joining us electronically via the internet is Tony Hale. Tony Hale.

Tony Hale: Heeeey!

Jesse Thorn: How are you?

Tony Hale: I’m good. Such an honor to celebrate with you.

Jesse Thorn: It’s such an honor to have you!

Tony Hale: 25! Yeah, I’m sure you’ve talked about that. That’s Y2K.

Jesse Thorn: I know. I haven’t thought—I haven’t thought about it in terms of Y2K!

Tony Hale: You started this in Y2K. You started this in the year that everybody thought technology was gonna shut down, because we were changing to the 2000s.

Jesse Thorn: And they all ran out to buy JNCO jeans.

Tony Hale: Yeah. (Laughs.) Did they?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. I think everyone was wearing JNCO jeans. J-N-C-O, jean-co.

Tony Hale: This is quite an honor though, to be here and celebrate with you. Thank you for having me.

Jesse Thorn: I’m very grateful to have you! Where are you joining me from?

Tony Hale: Alabama. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: So, tell me about— Is it just that after you win a certain number of Emmy’s, you can move to Alabama and still work in showbusiness?

Tony Hale: Yeah. Oh, you haven’t seen that trend? Everybody does that.

(Jesse laughs.)

When my daughter graduated high school about a year ago— ‘Cause your daughter’s how old now?

Jesse Thorn: My oldest is 14.

Tony Hale: Aw, wow. So, my mine graduated a year ago, and she came to school in the East coast. And we—for various reasons, we need to be closer to family. And so, my wife’s family— We’re in Birmingham, so my wife’s family is about an hour from here, and then my family is about an hour—about two hours to Georgia.

Jesse Thorn: It’s a beautiful place. It’s also a very different life than Los Angeles.

Tony Hale: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. That’s another thing. We’ve been back and forth for sooo many years—West Coast to East Coast—to see family. We just got kind of tired of it. But Birmingham is a great city. Great food scene, good art scene. I don’t know, it’s just—we really like it. I mean, we’re still in the transition phase of— I have moments where I’m like, “HUH!? What am I doing!?” But as a whole, I really like it.

Jesse Thorn: What are the things that make you feel “huh? What am I doing?” about it? What are the things where you get anxious?

Tony Hale: You know, I think— (Chuckles.) What are the things I get anxious—? Oh, here’s my list. (Chuckles.)

[01:25:00]

Jesse Thorn: Remember, we only have five minutes total.

Tony Hale: Exactly. (Listing.) Waking up.

I mean, I think I took for granted that I lived in Los Angeles for 22 years, and you’re kind of surrounded by people that understand what you do. You know? They’re kind of used to the freelance lifestyle; you’re used to “I don’t know when the next gig’s gonna come.” I mean, I’ve been gig-to-gig for 30 years. And you just kinda— You’ll go to coffee shops; you’ll see people; you’ll see artists. We always made jokes about, yeah, everybody’s writing a script at a coffee shop. You know, duh-duh-duhduh. But you kind of— I got used to that environment. And then I was taken out of it. I didn’t appreciate it. I didn’t appreciate just being able to have those conversations that everybody was kind of used to those conversations, you know?

Jesse Thorn: That’s interesting. I remember that one of the things that you were looking for when you first came to Los Angeles was to find like a particular kind of faith community. And that was like— These memories are vague, and I did not prepare for this interview.

Tony Hale: (Laughs.) No, sure. That’s the best kind.

Jesse Thorn: There’s too many. 25 is too many interviews to prepare for. But my memory is that like you wanted to find a way to be in a Christian community that was also a creative community. And that can be— You know, there are advantages and disadvantages to trying to do that in Los Angeles. Is that a different experience in Alabama?

Tony Hale: You know, it was— In LA, just to— I think—(sighs). When it came to my faith, I didn’t really— I mean, I found people— I think maybe that was another thing, like with the people that their faith was important and they were artists, you know, we hung out and stuff. But when people found out that my faith was important to me and they had a reaction to it, it never bugged me. I mean, the church has made endless amounts of mistakes in the name of God. There’s been so much trauma, all that stuff. So, they’re looking at those filters.

So, I always liked that conversation if they wanted to talk about it, you know? Whereas down here, it’s a little more—I would say—cultural to be in a faith community. It’s not such an odd thing. But with that, you know, sometimes— And I’m not saying I’m like the most authentic, but sometimes you gotta— Wherever you go, you have to find those authentic conversations, like the authentic experiences, rather than just— Whether it be cultural or you grew up with it or something like that. If that makes sense. And from my own personal experience, it took me— I went through some really, really hard times, and I had to go through a time where I was like, “Okay, I gotta— Why do I believe what I believe?” And so, I really dug into like CS Lewis, you know, and Henry Nouwen. And you know, just really had to look through all that stuff to really figure out like, “Is this for me?” You know? Anyways, I dunno if that makes sense.

Jesse Thorn: It does. What’s an example of one of those conversations that you’ve had since you moved? A conversation where you found that authenticity?

Tony Hale: I would say just that.

(A beep.)

I would say honesty. You know, I mean, I’ve had a lot of conversations since being here—like I did in LA—that were honest about our humanity. I think many times the faith community wants to put a pretty bow on life. Just like tie it up with a nice little bow and be like, “Look, this is how it’s done.” And life is so messy. (Chuckles.) It is so messy, and we are all such works in progress. And when somebody is honest about that human experience and how, for them— Like, I can only speak for myself with that human experience and that tough stuff, I had to lean on a being who saw a bigger picture. I had to lean on a being who loved me and wanted to walk with me. And so, when I find someone who wants to have that honest conversation, that’s really a gift.

Jesse Thorn: Well, Tony, we’re out of time, but I’m always grateful to get to see you. I’m always grateful to get to talk to you. I hope that you’ll be in touch when you’re back in Los Angeles—

(Tony confirms.)

—continuing to rule showbusiness.

Tony Hale: (Chuckles.) I’m so proud of you, man! This is so fantastic!

Jesse Thorn: Isn’t that weird? I felt that way about you when you became a major entertainment celebrity. So.

Tony Hale: Am I? Oh. Okay. Thank you.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah! You’re one of the top entertainment celebrities whose email address I have.

Tony Hale: (Triumphantly.) YES!

Alright. You’re the best.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughing.) Tony, thank you for taking the time. Tony Hale. What a legend.

Our next guest on the program is absolutely one of my favorite creative people on earth: a legendary cartoonist and writer, a legendary television… designer?

(She laughs.)

Animation designer? (Laughs.) What is your job called on television shows?

Lisa Hanawalt: I design televisions.

Jesse Thorn: (Giggling.) You design televisions! Well, she works for the RCA corporation, of course.

Lisa Hanawalt: Mm-hm. I’m an engineer.

Jesse Thorn: Lisa Hanawalt. Hi, Lisa. How are you?

Lisa Hanawalt: Hi, Jesse. I’m good. How are you?

Jesse Thorn: I’m great!

(A beep.)

And congratulations on the brand-new show, Long Story Short on Netflix!

(She thanks him.)

Were you afraid after working for so many years on BoJack Horseman—on which you were the television designer; you were the co-creator in charge of the visual portion of the show, essentially.

[01:30:00]

Lisa Hanawalt: That’s right.

Jesse Thorn: Were you afraid to go back to that? Like, you had had your—

Lisa Hanawalt: So scared. No. (Laughs.) Like—

Jesse Thorn: You had had your own show, Tuca and Birdie, right? But like, were you afraid after this long success to be like, “And now, we’re gonna start a new thing”?

Lisa Hanawalt: No, not at all. It felt like— You know, working with the same people I’ve been working with for a long time. Like, we’re all friendly, and it’s doing something I know how to do. So, I was pretty sure I wasn’t gonna like mess it up real bad. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: What was different this time?

Lisa Hanawalt: I knew to make the designs a little simpler. That was a big thing is to not just like slap crazy patterns on all the like sleeves and pant legs. That’s just difficult to animate. It makes everyone’s life a hell. (Laughs.) So.

Jesse Thorn: What’s an— Tell me about a character that you designed for the new show.

Lisa Hanawalt: What’s a character? I really like Shira Schwooper. She’s the sister character, and she’s played by Abbi Jacobson. And I just really like her, ’cause she’s a huge brat and kind of reminds me of myself. (Giggles.)

Jesse Thorn: (Surprised.) Are you a huge brat?

Lisa Hanawalt: I can be!

Jesse Thorn: Really? About what are you—?

Lisa Hanawalt: Yeah! Not here; here I’m gonna be a sweetie pie. Butt like, she just—you know, she just gets like upset about things easily, and she’s kind of all up in her own head. And I don’t know, I just relate to her.

Jesse Thorn: How does that translate into the aesthetic part of it? The visual part of it?

Lisa Hanawalt: How does it? She’s kind of messy, and she’s always changing her style. I really liked designing her. The show jumps back and forth in time a lot; like, every episode’s a different time period, and so we see the characters like grow up and then they’re young again. And I really like designing her as a teenager in high school, ’cause she’s like around my same age. And so, I’m just like, “What was I wearing? What was I looking at in the Delia’s catalog?”

Jesse Thorn: Oh, I thought you were claiming to be high school aged right now. (Chuckles.) I misunderstood you.

Lisa Hanawalt: (Playfully.) Well, in some ways, yes.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: What’s your current horse situation?

Lisa Hanawalt: I have a horse.

Jesse Thorn: What kind of horse do you have?

Lisa Hanawalt: She’s a Norwegian fjord. Thanks for asking.

Jesse Thorn: That’s a geographical feature, but continue!

(They laugh.)

Lisa Hanawalt: She is a really stocky, thick pony lady with like kind of a stick-uppy mane.

Jesse Thorn: How tall?

Lisa Hanawalt: She is 13 hands. Which— I don’t know how to explain that in non-horsey terms. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: How big compared to, say, a lady or a guy?

Lisa Hanawalt: Well, I’m a lady, and she’s definitely like—seems the right size for me. Like, kind of a little—like a curvy little lady. We’re kind of similar. But when I see like a real horse, like a—right?—like a thoroughbred or something, I point and I go, “Jeanie, that’s a real horse. You’re a stuffed animal.”

(They laugh.)

She looks like a stuffed animal compared to them.

Jesse Thorn: Do you ever ride like a big, giant horse?

Lisa Hanawalt: Sometimes. And it feels really weird.

Jesse Thorn: The only time I have ever been on a horse was as a child, maybe as a 13-year-old? 12-year-old? Something like that. I got on a horse at a farm that belonged to a friend of my mother’s, and it was like a giant horse.

Lisa Hanawalt: Yeah. Was it scary?

Jesse Thorn: It wasn’t just like a standard full-size horse, non-pony horse. It was like a—

Lisa Hanawalt: Extra horse.

Jesse Thorn: It was like a Clydesdale or something. (Laughs.) It was like a draft horse. He was like a huge horse.

Lisa Hanawalt: Oh my god. (Chuckles.) Did you need like a ladder to get on it? How did you get on it?

Jesse Thorn: So, I think someone like—you know, threw me up into the air sort of deal.

Lisa Hanawalt: Wow.

Jesse Thorn: That’s my memory. And then the main thing I remember is that it made me nauseous.

Lisa Hanawalt: Really?

Jesse Thorn: It was such a calm horse, but it was—

Lisa Hanawalt: The movement made you kind of like seasick?

Jesse Thorn: And the terror, combined.

Lisa Hanawalt: Yeah, the terror; that’ll do it. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: What is the personality of your horse like?

Lisa Hanawalt: Very cheerful. Very funny. She’s like amusing; like she’ll do funny things on purpose.

Jesse Thorn: Like, what’s an example?

Lisa Hanawalt: Like when I introduce her to new people, she does this thing where she like flaps her upper lip up and like acts like you stink. Like, she’s just— She like does like a horsey grin. It’s— I don’t know; it’s hard to explain. And she like— She bites a lot, like playfully. And she’s just like a little imp.

Jesse Thorn: How often do you see her?

Lisa Hanawalt: A few times a week usually, when I’m in town. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Do you miss her when you don’t?

Lisa Hanawalt: Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Is central to this relationship that you ride around on the animal?

Lisa Hanawalt: That’s a part of it. That’s a big, fun part of it. But sometimes I don’t ride, sometimes I just go and like hang out with her, and I brush her, and we just kind of hang out.

Jesse Thorn: But it’s like such a different… Like, I’ll give you an example. I had a small dog. She passed away.

Lisa Hanawalt: I’m sorry.

Jesse Thorn: Rest in peace to Cocoa. I got a new dog, and my dog is like a medium to large dog. He’s sort of— He’s half golden retriever. He is about that size. And I miss having my dog on my lap. But I’ve learned about spooning a dog, like holding onto a dog.

(A beep.)

Lisa Hanawalt: It’s nice when an animal’s big!

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, when it’s like a big log of animal.

Lisa Hanawalt: Yeah. She’s like Totoro.

(Jesse cackles.)

Like, when you—like, you can just like lie on top of her and feel her animal, furry body, and it’s nice! (Laughs.)

[01:35:00]

It’s very comforting.

Jesse Thorn: Lisa, it is always so nice to see you. And thank you for stopping by.

Lisa Hanawalt: My pleasure. Thanks, Jesse.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. The great Lisa Hanawalt, one of the best in the business. Watch her brand new show on Netflix. Oh, look at this! We gotta fly in a chair for these next guests!

(Chair scraping sounds.)

My next guests are podcasting pioneers! Legends in the field of podcasting: Matt Belknap and Jimmy Pardo. Hi, Matt and Jimmy. How are you?

Matt Belknap: Hello!

Jimmy Pardo: (Urgently.) I’ve only got five minutes.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughing.) Great!

Jimmy Pardo: I don’t have a lot of time. So, you’re gonna have to get to— Ask him his questions, and then really focus it on me.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughing.) Okay, great. Thank you, Jimmy.

Jimmy Pardo: I don’t know why we had to share. We’re not the Sklar brothers. Why—? Why? We’re not a team!

Jesse Thorn: You are a team!

Jimmy Pardo: No, but we’re not (censor beep).

Matt Belknap: What?!

Jesse Thorn: You guys are— First of all, you’re best friends.

(A beep.)

Jimmy Pardo: I don’t know if that’s necessarily— I don’t know if Matt thinks that.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: First of all, you’re best friends.

Jimmy Pardo: He’s got soccer friends.

(Jesse cackles.)

Matt Belknap: That’s true.

Jimmy Pardo: He hangs out with his soccer buddies. We used to talk every day. This is true. We used to talk every day, and we’d have lunch about once a week. We haven’t talked every day— We haven’t talked on the phone.

Matt Belknap: We talk five hours a week!

Jimmy Pardo: (Quietly.) Use the microphone.

Matt Belknap: I am!

Jimmy Pardo: There we go.

Jesse Thorn: They had them turned. Okay. Now Matt is allowed to respond.

Matt: Belknap: Finally, it’s my turn!

Jimmy Pardo: And we don’t need it anymore! ‘Cause you got your new soccer friends. You’re all about these soccer friends.

Matt Belknap: Well, you know how it—(sighs) when your children are a certain age— Now, you’re at a different phase of life now, Jimmy. Your child has gone off to college, and now you’re a lonely, sad man. When I get to your point, then—

Jesse Thorn: You still look great!

Jimmy Pardo: Thank you very much.

Matt Belknap: But we will probably start having lunch again when my kids have gone off to college. It’s gonna be about six years. (Laughs.)

Jimmy Pardo: I’m liking this energy. (Laughs.) I’m liking this energy of having a lot of free time.

Matt Belknap: Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: When the two of you were going out to lunch once a week, were you going to one of Jimmy’s special restaurants?

Jimmy Pardo: What do you mean by special restaurant?

Jesse Thorn: I know that you have particular restaurants you like to attend and others that you don’t.

Jimmy Pardo: Um. Am I really—? (Stammering.) Eh? Eh. Ehh.

(Matt laughs.)

I’ll go wherever, unless it doesn’t have what I like.

(Jesse cackles.)

I can usually find something on the menu.

Matt Belknap: We did a lot of Paquito Más, ’cause we used to— Our old studio is right across the street from, I think, the best Paquito Más. Like, it stands above the other ones for some reason. So—

Jesse Thorn: I’m gonna be frank, I don’t know what a Paquito Más is.

Matt Belknap: How is that possible?! You’ve lived in LA for 20 years! (Laughs.)

Jimmy Pardo: They’re a— You order at the counter, but it’s better than fast food, Mexican food. And Matt’s not wrong. This is on Ventura Boulevard and Stern. Ventura and Stern. Of all the Paquito Máses in California, it’s the best. I don’t know if they’re franchised out or what, but they do it better than anybody else. Don’t be fooled by other ones!

Jesse Thorn: Can I ask you guys a question?

Jimmy Pardo: Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: Do you think that you get enough credit for your contributions to podcasting?

(They laugh.)

Matt Belknap: (Playfully.) Shut up.

Jimmy Pardo: You know my opinion on this. No, we don’t. No, I don’t think we do! I think that people like you and Scott Aukerman and Marc Maron—and in the old days, Chris Hardwick—you always give us credit! And I appreciate that. There are some newer folks that claim to have invented it. And then reporters seem to—and I talked about this with Marc Maron recently. Reporters will like talk to you, and you’ll say, “Well, really, Jimmy Pardo and Matt Belknap were the two that started it.” And then they, uh, decide to not put that in the story.

(Jesse laughs.)

And then— Because it doesn’t fit their narrative of the four that they wanna talk about. So, we get excluded a lot. And I’m not— Bitter’s a strong word, but I wish that we weren’t.

Jesse Thorn: I think— I mean, Matt, I was going through old hard drives as I was like archiving past Sound of Young Americas to prepare for the 25th anniversary specials that are upcoming.

Matt Belknap: You had to rub that in our face, didn’t you?

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: And I found, on one of the hard drives, my iTunes folders from 20 years ago. And I found AST Radio episodes.

Matt Belknap: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: The podcast where you interviewed comedians that essentially immediately preceded Never Not Funny.

Matt Belknap: Yeah. It was the sort of beta test that led to Never Not Funny. I remember you— So, we met on a message board, which is a fun fact. We knew each other on the internet before we met in person, but—

Jimmy Pardo: I’m gonna google “fun fact,” because I’m not so sure that qualifies.

Matt Belknap: I think it’s very fun. I committed to the bit!

Jimmy Pardo: Go ahead, I’m sorry.

Jesse Thorn: He brought out the phone! Now he’s just texting someone.

Matt Belknap: Yeah. Well, it often goes that way. Now it is gonna be, “Oh, what emails did I get? What doctor’s appointment can I reschedule now?”

(They laugh.)

Jimmy Pardo: I wish he was kidding.

Matt Belknap: But, yeah, no. I remember like learning about Sound of Young America from you, frankly, being obnoxious on the internet about promoting it endlessly. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: It was all I had. It was all I had. Yeah, go ahead.

Mat Belknap: Yeah, but I also remember very nicely you saying that your favorite podcast at that time was AST Radio. And because I was just a nerd who went to a lot of shows in LA—

(A beep.)

—and I sort of weaseled my way into situations where I could talk to people like Jimmy and—

Jesse Thorn: And Zach Galifianakis or whoever. Yeah.

[01:40:00]

Matt Belknap: Sure. And—but when I interviewed Jimmy, it was at his dining room table. And it was just so fun to sit and talk and kind of riff. It wasn’t an— I mean, it sort of devolved into just nothing. I mean, it wasn’t an interview, because we had already— We’d already done like a print interview sort of.

Jimmy Pardo: Yeah. We sat down to talk about— For Jimmy Pardo’s Dance Party, we did a full-on interview at Jerry’s Deli.

Matt Belknap: Right. So, this was just more like, “Hey, let’s just, you know, talk and have fun.” And I was like— I think you enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. And I was trying to get him to do, you know, something like that with his live talk show—which he was doing at the UCB, called Running Your Trap. And we tried recording that, and it didn’t— I thought it was fun, but he thought, “Eh, that’s not a—”

Jimmy Pardo: I didn’t think it was a good audio program! I felt like it was kind of like you had to be there, and I felt that we could do better in a broadcast setting.

Jesse Thorn: Jimmy Pardo, Matt Belknap, always a delight. We’re gonna take a little break—

Jimmy Pardo: BULLS-EYE!

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: We’re gonna take a little break on the livestream so that I can go to the bathroom and have a piece of pizza.

Jimmy Pardo: Oh!

Transition: Pleasant synth.

Jesse Thorn: We’re gonna take a break. When we return, we will finish up our wild and fun 25 for 25 event. On the docket: Bob Odenkirk, Elliott Kalan, Lisa Loeb. So, stay! Or we’ll miss you. It’s Bullseye from MaximumFun.org and NPR.

(ADVERTISEMENT)

 

Promo:

Music: Bright, enchanting holiday music.

Speaker: Do you need a gift for a MaxFun fan in your life? Or maybe you need some ideas to fill up a wish list of your own. Heck, maybe you just wanna pick up something for yourself as a little treat. Well, the MaxFun Holiday gift guide is here for all of your gift giving and gift wanting needs at MaximumFun.org/giftguide.

Of course, there’s show merch—like clothing, hats, bookmarks, stickers, even a candle—but there’s also a bunch of other cool stuff made by your favorite hosts, like comic books, graphic novels, music, art, and jewelry. Go check out the gift guide, and make sure you order soon so things get there in time for the holidays. MaximumFun.org/giftguide.

(Music fades out.)

 

Transition: Chiming synth with a syncopated beat.

Jesse Thorn: Welcome back to Bullseye. I’m Jesse Thorn. This year our show turned 25 years old. There are adults who are like running companies (laughs) and being head chefs at fancy restaurants who were born after I started doing this program. That fact is crazy. Even crazier? The night I celebrated our 25th anniversary by doing 25 interviews in one night, back to back to back to back to back. We’re in the home stretch. Let’s get right back into it.

Transition: Upbeat, funky electronic music.

Jesse Thorn: My next guest on the program is a longtime friend of this show, a longtime friend of Maximum Fun, the producing organization behind this program. She’s a comedian and actress. She was on You’re The Worst. She was on The Legend of Korra. She was the Titular Korra on the Legend of Korra. She’s the co-host of the podcast, E Pluribus Motto, a podcast about state mottos with my friend and co-host, John Hodgman. So, we are co-hosts by proxy.

(Janet giggles.)

She is also one of the stars of the new Netflix series Splinter Cell, which drops later this month. Janet Varney. Hi, Janet. How are you?

(A beep.)

Janet Varney: Jesse Thorn! Thank you for including me in 25 for 25. What number am I? Do we know? Are we keeping track?

Jesse Thorn: 21? Something like that?

Janet Varney: (Gasps.) 21!

Jesse Thorn: Kevin Ferguson, what do we got? 18 or 19?

Janet Varney: (Just as excited.) 18 or 19!? (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: 18 or 19. Yeah. We’ve had a couple. Tanya—

Janet Varney: Lucky 18 or 19!

Jesse Thorn: Tanya Mosley from Fresh Air, her child had a flag football injury. She was unable to come.

Janet Varney: Ohhhh!

Jesse Thorn: There’s been a couple of last—

Janet Varney: And there will be. That’s life.

Jesse Thorn: That’s the way it goes sometimes.

Janet Varney: That’s what you’ve learned to do over time! You know, you started in radio. That was live, baby!

[01:45:00]

Jesse Thorn: Janet, you are now a true nerd celebrity. You were always a celebrity nerd.

(Janet agrees.)

But now you are a true nerd celebrity because of being the voice of a famous anime character. How does that experience agree with you?

Janet Varney: It agrees hard with me in a big, great way. I don’t know what it would be like if it were not something that I loved so deeply. That feels like a real just stroke of good fortune. Because there are lots of things that are good and fun and great that people get really into that I have total respect for. But I can watch a thing and know for sure like, “I like this. If I were one of the lead voices, like I would be very proud and happy to do it.” But the feeling of love that I have for the Avatar-verse, I guess as we call it, is very deep and abiding. And I’ll never get tired of talking about it. It’s just that good. So, I got so lucky in that way.

Jesse Thorn: If it’s any comfort to you, I also call it the Avatar-verse.

Janet Varney: Thank you. Oh, well. You know, that’s just—the constant “is it the blue people? Is it the—you know, these are the—” I would say that’s the hardest thing that’s happening in the United States right now is: is it Avatar, or is it Avatar? (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: It’s really, tough times for the air bending community.

Janet Varney: Yeeeah. It’s just been very hard. Very hard. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: But I mean, you have been running San Francisco Sketchfest, which is one of the biggest comedy festivals in the world, for decades now. And one of the things that you do is bring to town things that people feel that way about. Right? Like, one of the things that San Francisco Sketchfest does is present, you know, whatever the best sketch comedy groups in the country are and some of the best standups in the country at that time. But the other thing that you do is bring Teen Witch to town.

(Janet agrees with a laugh.)

I mention Teen Witch, because I was in a van with Teen Witch once. It was very nice. But like, you know that world of: what is the thing that is special to someone?

Janet Varney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s— Thank you for bringing that up, because I am so in the (censor beep) right now, vis-a-vis Sketchfest planning, that it’s very hard to see the forest for the trees. It’s very, very nice and important to have people remind you of what it’s going to feel like when the shows are happening and people are overjoyed and the talent is having a great time. Because when you’re just scrunched down in front of a computer, like punching numbers into a spreadsheet, you’re like, “Why am I doing this again?!”

So, you have to have the feedback of like the positive part of it that makes it totally worth it and is why we keep doing it.

Jesse Thorn: Do you think that you learned anything from your experience as an organizer of special nerd events that applies to your current life that is, in part, being part of special nerd events?

Janet Varney: Oh, that’s a great question! Yeah. I think everything connects back, I think. And I think that sort of turns out to be true for like everyone I know who does a bunch of different stuff. And it’s something that I feel like I’ve been able to communicate that to people who are maybe not in a place in their careers where they would like to be, but maybe they’re doing something adjacent, or they feel like they’re so close to something, but it still feels so far away. And I really can honestly say like, “I don’t know, man. You’re putting a lot of tools in the toolbox, whether or not it feels like there’s some direct line that you’re supposed to be on.”

(A beep.)

Everything that I’ve done, up to and including like managing people at Pottery Barn in my 20s, I still feel like, “Oh man, like I— Like, I had legit like used some of the stuff that I learned just doing that!” like comes into play. And everything feeds back in.

Jesse Thorn: Okay. What’s an example of a Pottery Barn skill?

Janet Varney: A Pottery Barn skill was definitely— Like, I was too young to be in charge of people who were older than me. And I feel like it really helped me navigate like what it means to be a young person versus a more mature person and how to treat a mature person with total respect while still somehow facilitating getting something done—and not having that person feel like they’re being, you know, talked down to by child. That is a genuine thing that like now I feel like I’m sort of— I look for that in people who are younger than me, like doctors.

(They laugh.)

Like, now that I’m in a place where like someone is operating on me who is younger than me, like it’s interesting to see how people navigate the age thing. Because it both doesn’t matter and always does matter. And it’s just an interesting like little thing to drop into whatever a dynamic is.

Jesse Thorn: Janet, we’re outta time. That was our five minutes. Janet Varney, it’s always great to see you.

Janet Varney: It’s great to see you! Thanks, for inviting me! Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Jesse Thorn: I always feel lucky when I get to see you.

[01:50:00]

Thank you for all of your innumerable contributions to my career, including giving me a job when I was completely indigent.

Janet Varney: You know what? You had to boss me around when you were a publicist when I was a little older than you, and you did it with such grace.

(Jesse laughs.)

And that’s the Pottery Barn way. So, thank you, Jesse.

Jesse Thorn: Janet Varney!

Janet Varney: Happy 25^th!

Jesse Thorn: Thank you.

It’s Bullseye. We’re doing 25 interviews for our 25th anniversary. My next guest is one of my favorite standup comics, as well as a brilliant comedy writer. He’s currently writing on the third season of Survival of the Thickest, which will be out next year on Netflix: Mr. Solomon Georgio.

Solomon Georgio: Hi, Jesse!

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Solomon, can I tell you something that I was thinking about as I was thinking about you coming in?

(Solomon affirms.)

All standup comics make comedy albums—all standup comics who get to the point of having an hour, anyway. At this point there’s like clubs where they’ll just be like, “Do you want to record an album while you’re here?” You know? So, it’s everybody. You can just throw it on Spotify. You don’t even have to pay to have CDs burned. These albums have different levels of commitment to even their titles, to say nothing of their art direction.

(Solomon agrees with a laugh.)

Your standup comedy album has the most extravagant art direction—

(Solomon cackles and confirms.)

—of any comedy record I have ever witnessed with my eyes.

Tell me— Describe the cover of your album for me.

Solomon Georgio: The cover— I specifically—I wanted to do full glam. And I got— First, I got custom nails done. These really long, black nails with just amazing like rhinestones put on them.

Jesse Thorn: Did you already have a person?

Solomon Georgio: I got the nails first, and then I hired a makeup artist for the shoot. And I—

Jesse Thorn: I mean a nails person. Did you have a person, like—

Solomon Georgio: There’s a separate person for the nails. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Right. I know. I’m aware—!

(Solomon cackles.)

Solomon, don’t gay-splain to me! Solomon, what I mean is: did you already have an extravagant nail person? Because some people have a special person—sometimes they even come to your house, I’ve learned recently.

Solomon Georgio: Yes. Yes. My person—’cause these are like—’cause they’re just like high end the ones you glue on. And it was actually just a friend of a friend. Well, now we’re friends ourselves, and she just happened to take on the skill. And she was amazing at it, but she no longer does it. So, you cannot get the nail girl again, but—

Jesse Thorn: So, you got the giant nails.

Solomon Georgio: I got the giant nails, and I was— I pretty much just looked at the makeup artist, and I was like, “Grace Jones.” I probably said it three times throughout. And she delivered. She like gave me this amazing big smoky eye, big lashes, this metallic lipstick. And like, that was the cover. And it was like— And the photographer, Kim Newmoney, who’s like one of my personal friends, and she’s an amazing photographer. She was like, “Red light from one side, blue light from the other side.” And it really made this just really bold cover out of it. So.

Jesse Thorn: Did you have hair at the time that you conceived of—?

Solomon Georgio: No. I was—I’m not wearing— I’m just bald!

Jesse Thorn: But you’re not—but you have— So, what I’m asking is, as you sit before me right now, you have a gorgeous hairline.

(Solomon agrees with a surprised laugh.)

Solomon has gorgeous hair.

Solomon Georgio: It’s the Ethiopian forehead, as I like to call it. It’s spacious, but it’s still—(laughs).

Jesse Thorn: But dignified. Handsome. And on your album cover, you are as Grace Jones. Like you just put your head into a bowling ball shiner.

(Laughs.)

You know what I mean?

Solomon Georgio: (Laughing.) Yes. I put my trust into some amazing people, and I ended up—’cause like, I had the idea, but just like— I’m one of those people who’s very fortunate when I make an artistic decision that I have people who can make it better than my own actual thoughts. And that is very lucky and very queer and very fortunate.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: Do you feel like you are where you should be in your standup comedy career, Solomon?

Solomon Georgio: Well, for me, standup is such like an insanely large passion that I actually, truly, genuinely never thought I’d even get this far. So, I’m now mentally catching up to the fact that I wanna keep going. (Laughs.) And so, I’m now in the place where I’m like kind of just doing like a career revival. ‘Cause I just took a backseat for writing, and now I’m like, “Oh, I miss talking to people.” I miss that level of validation. I’m a narcissist, and I need it.

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: Do you think you found your audience, as a standup? I mean, I’ve seen you perform for very general audiences, and you go over great.

Solomon Georgio: I feel like finding your audience is always gonna be— I think that’s just comes with finding your voice. Like, I definitely have more people who show up to things. I have people who consider themselves fans. But in all honesty, like I’m always constantly in the pursuit of more audience. And just, for me, it’s always gonna be about what can I do to make my point of view as funny to as many people as possible.

[01:55:00]

So, I’m not really concerned if I end up finding my audience out of it. (Chuckles.) Like, I just— I’m happy to have nothing but a bunch of strangers who I have to convince that I’m funny.

Jesse Thorn: Would you like to be a queer icon?

Solomon Georgio: Umm—I already am. And it’s just fine. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: It’s only okay. It’s only okay, you’re telling me!

Solomon Georgio: It’s just fine. It’s just—you just kind of— You just take a day by day. You just wake up and you’re like, “Yeah, I’m amazing.” And then you go to be still stunning. And it’s—

Jesse Thorn: You call Liza for advice.

Solomon Georgio: (Laughs.) It takes a lot of work to serve all day, but I do it.

(A beep.)

(They giggle.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, Solomon, as you know, you’re one of my favorite comics and favorite funny human beings on Earth.

Solomon Georgio: That’s so kind.

Jesse Thorn: Truly one of the funniest people. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart, and I’m very happy to get to see you.

Solomon Georgio: Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I— I agree.

(They laugh.)

I’m so happy to be here.

Jesse Thorn: Thank you for coming by, Solomon Georgio.

Speaking of some of my favorite people who are funny on Earth, this is one of my all-time comedy favorite heroes joining me by speaker phone!

(A garbled “yeah” from the background.)

By speaker phone is the one and only Mr. Bob Odenkirk. Don’t we—? We have a phone machine. Why are we micing a speaker phone, Kevin?!

(Bob laughs.)

Kevin Ferguson: (Muffled.) Don’t tell me how to work.

Jesse Thorn: He doesn’t know how to—

Bob Odenkirk: It’s called analog, man!

Jesse Thorn: He doesn’t know! He tells me he doesn’t know how to work the phone machine. That’s how young he is.

(Bob “aw”s.)

He doesn’t— Well, Bob, thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time. It’s so nice to get to talk to you. Did you know that my original co-hosts—Jordan and Gene, who I did the show with in college—were just here.

(Bob “wow”s.)

And one of the things that happened in my life that changed my life was—

(A beep.)

Gene was from the Valley, and he had a video store near him where you could buy bootleg VHS tapes of television shows.

(Bob “wow”s.)

And he brought extra-long play videos of The Larry Sanders Show, Tenacious D, and Mr. Show to our dorms.

Bob Odenkirk: Wooow! So, like these videotapes had the whole season on them.

Jesse Thorn: Those television programs were on a total of four VHS tapes. (Laughs.)

Bob Odenkirk: So, there’s like 10 episodes. Or more. So, the quality—the visual quality is—

Jesse Thorn: Abysmal. Abysmal.

Bob Odenkirk: Abysmal. But so what? It doesn’t matter. What matters is it’s well written and smart and surprising, and you guys were cool. That’s what matters.

Jesse Thorn: Did you know that you were like literally changing people’s lives at the time?

Bob Odenkirk: You know, I loved Monty Python so much when I was 11, and I could easily imagine a young 11/12/13 and college aged kid going, “What the hell? This is cool. Someone’s doing something smart and cool,” and their brain being excited by the degree to which we cared and the way we mixed absurdity with silliness and smartness. And yeah! I believed that there were young people out there just like me from years ago going, “Yeah, I get it!”

And you know, the challenge was to keep it on the air. Because young people did not—they were not able to afford HBO. Only older people were able to afford HBO. So, we just got lucky a little bit. You know, I think the people who worked at HBO—Chris Albrecht and Carolyn Strauss—loved the show, and they wanted any excuse to keep it on, so they found those excuses.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, I gotta say. The memory that I have of the first time that you were on The Sound of Young America—which now is probably 20 years ago, maybe a little more than 20 years ago—was the level of ideological fervor that you had about sketch comedy. That you had, like left Saturday Night Live, the greatest sketch comedy program of all time. (Correcting himself.) Maybe Python is. But you know, by many measures, the greatest sketch comedy program of all time.

(Bob agrees.)

And you had left there, you know, enriched and having learned a lot. But like, your commitment to these particular ideals, like what kind of walls and doors there should be, were the thing that you were talking to me about on The Sound of Young America when you were on. (Chuckles.)

Bob Odenkirk: Yeah! Yeah. I mean, it was something I cared passionately about and had thought at length about.

[02:00:00]

And I had my theories. And would I ever get a chance to put them to practice was, you know, really very questionable that would happen in the context—in the world that we had at the time, where there were so few opportunities. And somehow, through steady, you know, beating my head against the wall and patience—or just not really patience; sticktoitiveness—I did get that chance. And it was so satisfying that when it was over, I didn’t know what else to do with my body and brain and life.

(They laugh.)

I literally was like, “Okay, well I can die now!” If I had, it would’ve been like what I would’ve left behind is, “Well, I’m done.” (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: I mean, you guys were— I saw you guys on tour around that time. It really was like you were shot out of a rocket to make this thing that was your dream, and then you have to figure out like what is the thing after you did your dream.

Bob Odenkirk: Yeah, it really— It’s a weird scenario and one people rarely get. I bet a lot of athletes get this, ’cause it sort of fits with like an athlete’s effort to get better and better and push themselves and kill themselves. But there comes a point where they simply are done, and whatever they’ve done, that’s done. And that dream is gone. And not in a bad way; in a good way! They got to act out and fulfill that dream.

(A beep.)

So, now what? And I wouldn’t say I floundered, but I did search. And then something found me, which was drama acting, which came out of, you know, really not anything I was pursuing. But I realized I had some presence there that was of value.

Jesse Thorn: Now that you’re a celebrated, dramatic actor, your dramatic acting has often included comic elements. It’s not like you’re doing things that aren’t funny. Do you feel the siren call of yelling something dumb at someone in a classic—?

Bob Odenkirk: Oh, being stupid?

(Jesse confirms with a laugh.)

Yeah. I’m doing it rrright now. I’m doing a movie right now that is totally in line with Mr. Show and everything we did. My wife is producing it. A bunch of great people are in it, and I’m not gonna explain anything about it. It’s called The Making of Jesus Diabetes.

(Jesse laughs, and you can hear the crew laughing off-mic.)

Jesse Thorn: Well, it requires no explanation, Bob! It’s self-evident!

Bob Odenkirk: No, no. Self-evident.

Jesse Thorn: Well, thank you for taking the time.

Bob Odenkirk: Hey man, congratulations on carrying on so long and so well and being great at what you do and talking to cool people. And thanks for including me in it.

Jesse Thorn: Well, thank you for making the time, Bob. It’s always nice to get to talk to you. I hope we’ll see you again soon.

Bob Odenkirk: Okay. Alright, thanks so much.

Jesse Thorn: Our next guest on the program is the senior producer of Bullseye. The producer of Bullseye for the last—I don’t know—seven years or something like that. I couldn’t tell you. Mr. Kevin Ferguson. Come on in, Kevin.

(The shuffling of chairs.)

It’s amazing to me, Kevin. All these years producing the show, and you never learned to use the phone machine.

Kevin Ferguson: We’ve had that phone machine for a long time. Let me move this mic up a little bit.

(A beep.)

We have not used it in like six years. I don’t even know if that thing is still plugged in. And the fact is, Bob Odenkirk called me; he was very nice, and he was like, “I’m so sorry. This shoot is running long.”

And I was like, “Well, do you wanna do it over the phone?”

And he was like, “Yeah, I can do it right now.” Zip it on in here. That’s showbiz, baby!

Jesse Thorn: I guess that’s showbusiness. You know how I got that phone machine, Kevin? I sold my car.

Kevin Ferguson: Oh my god!

Jesse Thorn: I had a 1962 Dodge Dart. ’62? ‘65. I can’t remember. I sold it to a nice man who was gonna work on it with his son. And I bought probably one of the microphones that we’re talking into here.

Kevin Ferguson: The SM7-B,

Jesse Thorn: The SM7-B. And I bought the Mackie mixer that’s above our ceiling right now, inside a bag.

Kevin Ferguson: (Chuckles.) God bless that thing.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. Hasn’t been brought out probably in 10 years. And I bought that phone machine, and the phone machine was the expensive purchase.

Kevin Ferguson: Yeah. Those used to be very pricey.

Jesse Thorn: That was a, like $1,500 machine. I bought it secondhand, but I think it cost me $600, which was 600 more dollars than I had.

Kevin Ferguson: Do you remember when I texted you the other day that I found a fully functioning ISDN machine at the thrift shop by my house?

[02:05:00]

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. $14.99.

Kevin Ferguson: Yeah, those things used to be thousands of dollars as well. ISDNs were basically like what Terry Gross—

Jesse Thorn: Digital telephone lines. Yeah.

Kevin Ferguson: Yeah. Terry Gross would do all of her interviews over ISDN before—you know—the internet happened.

Jesse Thorn: Kevin, how long have you been the producer of Bullseye now?

Kevin Ferguson: I started in October—wow. October of 2016.

Jesse Thorn: You ever thought about quitting?

Kevin Ferguson: (Laughs.) No.

Jesse Thorn: I’m not forcing you to. I’m just sincerely asking that. It’s my job as the interviewer to try and ask revealing questions.

Kevin Ferguson: When I first went into radio, I had an internship at Marketplace. And I was like, “Well, I’ll like look for a job after this, and if it doesn’t work out—I don’t know. I guess I’ll be a cook or something.” ‘Cause I was like not into the idea of working in a nine to five otherwise. And then after hearing about what it’s like to actually be a cook, I’m really grateful I went into public radio and podcasting.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) I do make you say, “yes chef,” when I give you orders though.

Kevin Ferguson: I really wish that would stop after 25 years too.

Jesse Thorn: (Laughs.) What is the biggest challenge of working on Bullseye?

Kevin Ferguson: I think it’s the booking. It’s to find like really interesting and really famous people and make the time happen. Like—you know, we worked really hard to get Bob Odenkirk on, and things happen. We’re so grateful that he set aside the time. But it’s just making the thing happen and not panicking if you can’t do it. I’ve worked in a lot of like live radio situations, and when something goes wrong, you just got to roll with the punches. You have to do something every week.

Jesse Thorn: That’s my greatest terror is to host— I consider the apotheosis of public radio to be hosting the local midday call-in show—the AirTalk with Larry Mantle, here in Los Angeles. Forum formerly with Michael Krasny in San Francisco. The Brian Lehrer Show or whatever. That world where there’s 75 things happening at once is awe inspiring to me.

Do you think that you should have just gone into producing live call-in radio where your only job is to like circle some newspaper articles for the host and then screen calls?

Kevin Ferguson: (Chuckles.) I did that for a little bit. I was talking to Randy Sklar. We had a segment that we did once on this show about twins. And the host— This was when, Julián Castro and his twin both appeared at the DNC. And the host was like, “Aren’t twins kind of creepy?”

(Jesse laughs.)

“Let’s do a segment on that.”

Jesse Thorn: (Cackles.)

(A beep.)

Well, let’s leave it there!

(They laugh.)

Kevin Ferguson, thank you so much for joining me on Bullseye.

(Kevin thanks him.)

Kevin is the senior producer of Bullseye for almost 10 years now. I’m so grateful. You know, obviously to say I couldn’t do it without you is an absurd understatement.

Kevin Ferguson: Very grateful to be here.

Jesse Thorn: It’s the most literal thing. I’m so grateful for your partnership in making this show.

Kevin Ferguson: Alright. Bye, everybody!

Jesse Thorn: Our next guest on the show is another both beloved hero of mine and longtime repeat guest on this program. He is one of the founding members of The State. He was the director of Wet Hot American Summer among other films. He is one of the members of Middle Aged Dad Jam Band, which is a cover band with other people he knows—like Ken Marino—that plays real venues (chuckling) in front of real crowds. And frankly does a great job. An almost upsettingly great job.

David Wain, welcome back to Bullseye. Nice to see you.

David Wain: Nice to see you!

Jesse Thorn: It’s nice to see you too.

David Wain: It’s been way too long. I’m adjusting this for no particular reason. Sorry.

Jesse Thorn: What gave you and your fellow Middle Aged Dad Jam Band members the temerity to think that you should perform in front of others rather than just alone in a garage in shame like most dads do?

David Wain: I like the word temerity.

(Jesse thanks him with a chuckle.)

(A beep.)

It’s a great question, because we had— At least at first, we really had no business doing anything other than just playing for each other in the garage. But it was— We just—we were jamming in the pandemic, and we were like, “This is so fun.” And you know what happened? We got called up by Janet Varney, who you might have met at some point.

Jesse Thorn: Just in the studio moments ago.

David Wain: Oh my goodness!

Jesse Thorn: Yeah.

David Wain: They were like, “These jams we’ve seen on your Instagram. You wanna do something like that here at the—” Actually, it was more like, “What do you wanna do at Sketchfest?”

And I’m like, “How about our band?”

And they were like, (disappointed.) “Oh, okay. We’ll figure out something.”

(They chuckle.)

[02:10:00]

But so, we said, “Well, it’s gonna be the Middle Aged Band.” And then we did a little test show right across the street here, at Dynasty Typewriter. And we put together this performing band, which is me and Ken and other dads and my son and like other—my niece and a bunch of friends and random people. And it kind of did coalesce into a band, like a cover band. And it’s just super fun.

Jesse Thorn: Do you have to explain that you’re doing this when you’re— Like, you directed another feature film recently.

David Wain: Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: When you’re in a showbusiness meeting and they say, “What have you been up to?”, and you’re like, “Oh, I’m touring with my cover band—”

David Wain: It’s really more the opposite. It’s people come up to me, and they’re like, “Hey, I love the band!”

(They laugh.)

And I’m like, “Oh, great. Can I get a job doing what I’ve been training myself to do for the last 40 years?”

“No, no, no. Tell us about the band. Like, when can you play at our party or something?” (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Are you gonna become— Like, you know, for the last 25 years of his life or something, Biz Markie made his living as a celebrity DJ.

David Wain: I wanna play all the tech bro parties. I want the billionaires to hire us and give us tips.

(They laugh.)

No, but I think— Yeah. I mean, listen. There’s always another act, another era in one’s career. Who knows? (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Can you tell me anything about this feature film that you alluded to on your social media but didn’t explain?

David Wain: The film involves—Zoe Deutch is the main character and also John Slattery is in it, and Jon Hamm is in it, and an incredible cast. Ben Wong is in it. And a bunch of other people. And I wrote it with Ken Marino. And if you know me at all, it’s very David Wain. (Laughs.) And it’s a script that Ken Marino and I wrote a little while back and have always kept kind of tinkering with it and wanting to figure out the right way to make it. And we finally got a chance to this year, and it’s super awesome. I’m super— I’m very excited about it. We actually locked picture today.

Jesse Thorn: Congratulations on that!

David Wain: Yeah. And I’m just grateful— You know, it’s harder and harder to make movies, especially comedies. And we shot this here in LA, and it’s an independent, original film that’s not a IP or anything. And it was very cool opportunity to do it.

Jesse Thorn: It would be amazing if you had been talking about it that entire time, and then I just found out that it was based on Tony the Tiger.

David Wain: Yeah.

(They laugh.)

Iiiit’s the Frosted Flakes man. Don’t judge.

Jesse Thorn: Is it easy for you to lock picture?

David Wain: You know, it’s not that hard. And it’s funny, I told a few different people that—you know—“Oh, we’re locking picture.”

And they’re like, “Oh my god! It must be so exciting! And what a momentous—!” And it’s— This part of the filmmaking process is such a slow drip, ’cause you’ve kind of finished it a few weeks ago, and then you still got months more to go before it’s really fully done. But this is the point where we technically, theoretically have stopped the picture editing process. Which is exciting. And it is cool. And it was— We did the final watch down yesterday, and we identified our final little notes. But now we know that there’s still a world of the effects music and sound and graphics and color and other things to do.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: David, can I tell you that— I met my co-hosts of The Sound of Young America when I was in college. We were all in college. We were dorm mates. Can I tell you what the most valued single item on our hall was? There was a nice young man named Michael, and he had a copy of State by State with The State. The State book.

David Wain: The infamous State book.

Jesse Thorn: We all fought each other for it.

David Wain: Did you read it?

Jesse Thorn: Yeah! It was hilarious. It’s a great book. It’s hilarious.

David Wain: The story of that was that after The State kind of fell apart in the late ‘90s, we got somehow a deal to write a book. And we decided that we didn’t wanna like really work hard on it or do anything together. And so—

(They chuckle.)

We said everyone just got assigned to write pages of a travel guide, and then we would organize it by state. And then Grant and I sat in a living room with all these different papers and put them in order and then handed them into the publisher. And so—

(They laugh.)

Jesse Thorn: And those people that you avoided work with are still your compatriots to this day.

David Wain: Every day, through and through.

Jesse Thorn: Well, David, thank you. Thank you so much. I can’t tell you what it means to have you here or—

David Wain: Well, I loved this first few minutes just getting warmed up. And now let’s really just dive in and start getting into the—

Jesse Thorn: (Pointedly interrupting.) My next guest on the program is the production fellow—

(David laughs.)

David Wain. Thank you so much, David.

David Wain: Congrats on your anniversary!

Jesse Thorn: Thank you. It was very nice to see you.

David Wain: See you later.

Jesse Thorn: My next guest on the program is the production fellow at Maximum Fun. That’s right! Two people canceled!

[02:15:00]

So, there’s two production staff coming into the studio. She’s gonna be playing the Crepe Place in Santa Cruz on November 6th! Hannah Moroz. Hi, Hannah. How are you?

Hannah Moroz: Hellooo!

Jesse Thorn: Are you actually playing the Crepe Place?

Hannah Moroz: Yeah, I’m for real doing that.

Jesse Thorn: I just assumed that was a Santa Cruz joke!

Hannah Moroz: No! (Laughs.) I’m actually playing there!

Jesse Thorn: What are you doing there?

Hannah Moroz: Playing music. Music’s what I do, Jesse! (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: Oh! Oh, I thought you—(sputtering and chuckling.) How silly of me, to think that you worked on my radio show!

Hannah Moroz: That’s the other thing I do. (Giggles.) I actually do a lot of things, unfortunately. I don’t have enough arms to do that many things.

Jesse Thorn: (Playfully.) Well, I don’t care about your music career, Hannah. We’re here to talk about your work on Bullseye with Jesse Thorn. This is my night.

Hannah Moroz: Absolutely.

Jesse Thorn: I’m the princess!

Hannah Moroz: I just came here to ruin it a little. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: I just want people who don’t know this already to know that for a crepe place, the Crepe Place is a very serious music venue.

Hannah Moroz: I’m learning that. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: That’s one of the top crepe music venues in America, I’d say!

Hannah Moroz: (Laughs.) It’s gotta at least be in the top three.

Jesse Thorn: To get a gig at the Crepe Place—no joke, that’s one of the grails that you’re reaching for. That’s the brass ring you’re hoping for if you’re a musician in Santa Cruz.

Hannah Moroz: Man, I feel like I am absolutely taking it for granted.

(Jesse “wow”s snootily.)

This feels very far away for me. ‘Cause I didn’t know anything about it! I just learned how cool it actually is.

Jesse Thorn: And you’re a rapper?

Hannah Moroz: (Chuckles.) I’m a singer-songwriter with a guitar and piano. You can tell by looking at me!

Jesse Thorn: What is the worst part about working on Bullseye with Jesse Thorn?

Hannah Moroz: Uuuum… (laughs awkwardly).

Jesse Thorn: You can’t be fired. This is being broadcast live on air.

Hannah Moroz: Uhhh. (Laughs.) The worst part is I live in Long Beach, and this office is an hour away from my home.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, depending on what time of day it is.

Hannah Moroz: Yeah. Living in Long Beach means everything I’ve ever done has been an hour away from my home. So.

Jesse Thorn: What did you think it was gonna be like to work on Bullseye, and how does what it’s actually like compare?

Hannah Moroz: I think I came in with some working knowledge of how to run a podcast that you publish to the internet. I didn’t know anything about radio distribution. What is new and bold and exciting to me is the NPR of it all.

Jesse Thorn: What is a skill that you think you’ve learned working on the show? A concrete skill.

Hannah Moroz: Oh god. Time management. Like, 110%. I mean, that’s something I’m actively learning. (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: How did you have to learn it?

Hannah Moroz: I mean, every… I’ve been working— I think before this, I’ve been working freelance for so long that it was fine that everything lives in my head. And you know, I make up my day, and that’s how it goes. And that’s—you know, that’s one way to live professionally. It does not translate well to teamwork. So.

(A beep.)

That’s my time! Not good at teamwork! (Laughs.)

Jesse Thorn: (Cackles.) Well, Hannah, we’ll see you at the Crepe Place in November.

Hannah Moroz: See you there! (Cackles.)

Jesse Thorn: Hannah Moroz, our production fellow. Okay, we’ve only got two guests left! What an innervating thrill it is to have our next guest in the studio. She’s a singer-songwriter of many hits songs. She has a daily show on SiriusXM, ‘90s on 9. She is about to be on tour with Joan Osborne. The great Lisa Loeb. Hello, Lisa. How are you?

Lisa Loeb: I’m good. How are you?

Jesse Thorn: I’m great. I’m thrilled to see you. I had therapy earlier today, Lisa.

(Lisa affirms with a chuckle.)

I said to my therapist, “I got this thing coming up. I’m interviewing 25 people. I got Huebel and Scheer, and Lisa Loeb is coming in.”

(A beep.)

And my therapist said, “Oh, you must be nervous about Lisa Loeb! You had a crush on her when you were 13.”

And I said yes. And then my therapist said, “She’s very beautiful.” And I said yes.

(Lisa laughs.)

It’s true! That’s a true story about me in therapy!

Lisa Loeb: I love that. It sounds like it was translated from another language, but I love it. I love it.

Jesse Thorn: Okay. Well, all my therapy sounds that way.

Lisa Loeb: And you had a therapist today. That’s a lot of talking! Don’t you get— Sometimes when you’re talking to the therapist, and then you’re like, “Ugh, I’m so tired from talking.”

Jesse Thorn: I don’t know, Lisa. Do you ever get tired of playing beautiful music?

Lisa Loeb: Oh, hmm. Let me think about that.

Jesse Thorn: “I hate music now,” you say to yourself?

Lisa Loeb: That’s very sweet. Thank you. I was just listening to you the other day—the other night—driving around. That’s like one of the great things about LA traffic at night is that you get to listen to great radio.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Are you a talking in the car person or a music in the car person?

Lisa Loeb: Well, to myself? I am a—

(They laugh.)

It depends on who I’m in the car with.

Jesse Thorn: I’m not talking about what kind of performance you’re doing in the car. What do you have on the stereo?

Lisa Loeb: On the stereo? It depends on what I’m doing. Like, if it’s just me, I am listening to usually NPR. Or I’m listening to a book if I’m listening to a really good book. Or I am— I like listening to religious radio. A lot of different religious radio.

Jesse Thorn: Different religious radio?

Lisa Loeb: Yeah, different religions. Catholic radio.

[02:20:00]

I’m Jewish, but it’s very interesting. Sometimes I listen to radio with people who have very different points of view than I do, aside from the religious radio. And sometimes—like today—I was listening to a couple of songs that I’m gonna be singing with a band tomorrow night at the Village Arts in Los Angeles with Adam Felder’s dad band called Superspreader. So, I was working on those songs. So, I was listening to the same song over and over again. I talk on the phone a lot in the car. Yeah. But if my kids are in the car, I listen to what they wanna hear.

Jesse Thorn: I can imagine you talking on the phone on a treadmill, like an entertainment executive in a movie.

Lisa Loeb: I do that in my— I don’t do it on a treadmill. I do like treadmills though. They’re fun. But I walk around my neighborhood a lot. And it’s funny, ’cause I run into other people who are also doing the same thing in Los Angeles. ‘Cause it’s so beautiful outside, and you’re having these great phone conversations. Unless I need to be in front of my computer because it’s an actual serious phone—you know, serious conversation.

Jesse Thorn: Do you have purpose music for when you’re in the car? Like, do you have music for when you need to get going somewhere or music for when it’s night and the lights are twinkling or those kinds of things?

Lisa Loeb: Ohhh. You know, I should, but I don’t. If you asked me when I was 15 or 16, I would say 100%. I was so into music for mood, and I needed different music for different things. And I loved, you know, Led Zeppelin for this and that thing with the window rolled down and Brian Eno music for airports. And you know, really specific things—The Cure, The Police. Now I am like— I just need it to be quiet, or I just need to like zone out, or I wanna learn something. And so, often it’s less music and more somebody talking about something for some reason.

Jesse Thorn: Do you know what the one music that I still like— I mostly listen to podcasts in the car or the baseball game if there’s a baseball game. But the one music that I’m very committed to listening to in the car is, if I’m not getting on the freeway, then I drive with my windows down and listen to rap music really loud.

(They laugh.)

Lisa Loeb: You’re so cool.

Jesse Thorn: Because I don’t get to in my house!

Lisa Loeb: And do you turn up the bass? Like, in my car, my son like listens to a lot of rap music, and so every time he gets in the car, he goes to the— You know, he changes the EQ, and he like jams up the bass really loud.

Jesse Thorn: I mean, I do miss—

Lisa Loeb: (Running through the grammatical options.) Loud? Loudly? Loud. Loud.

Jesse Thorn: I miss the like rock, jazz, classical buttons on the front of my CD player.

Lisa Loeb: (Laughs.) Yeah, those used to drive— I thought they were so neat, and then they used to drive me crazy. And I was such like a EQ nerd. I was like, you know, “Why are they preset like that?” I do sometimes— I will say, now that you said that, whenever I go pick up my kids at camp or maybe it’s summertime, I will roll down my window sometimes. Maybe I’ll have like a Coca-Cola with ice in it or some kind of—something that feels sentimental and nostalgic. And I will listen to summer soft pop songs from the ‘70s. Stuff that I would’ve listened to when I went to camp when I was like 9/10/11/12. And I love it. Like, Supertramp and maybe the one song by like, uh, (singing) “what’s the matter with the clothes I’m wearing?” You know, that song was really popular at summer camp. Songs from Urban Cowboy, but very like ‘70s summer songs. It really makes me happy.

(A beep.)

Jesse Thorn: Lisa Loeb, first of all, I appreciate you coming to stop by. I’m always thrilled to see you. Second of all, thank you for matching your water bottle to your sweatshirt.

Lisa Loeb: You’re welcome. Oh, that’s really a coincidence.

Jesse Thorn: Not at all. You did it on purpose. Thank you, Lisa. It’s very nice to see you.

Lisa Loeb: You’re welcome.

Jesse Thorn: Lisa Loeb. What a legend. A legend, both to me and to my therapist.

(They laugh.)

My final guest is the former head writer of The Daily Show, the former head writer of Mystery Science Theater 3000, the co-host of the podcast The Flop House. He’s writing the Harley Quinn comic book series for DC comics. He has a book coming out in November called Joke Farming: How to Write Comedy and Other Nonsense. My friend Elliott Kalan. Hello Elliott.

Elliott Kalan: Hi, Jesse!

Jesse Thorn: Elliott, we’re gonna have you on the show for a serious, full sit down about your book Joke Farming.

Elliott Kalan: I would love that. That’d be wonderful. Thank you!

Jesse Thorn: Because I know how deep and committed you are to the historical and theoretical questions of where comedy comes from.

Elliott Kalan: Yes. And how it works. How do you make it work? How’s it function? Yeah. Yeah.

Jesse Thorn: So, you have been writing this book while also, in parallel, writing comedy for television. You’ve been working on a Ghostbusters television show. How has the process of researching, you know, how the Marx Brothers write jokes or whatever changed your joke writing process?

Elliott Kalan: That’s a very good question. It always opens up to me the possibilities for ways of creating humor. And that, ideally, the way you create humor is kind of—comes naturally to you, and then is refined into a process.

[02:25:00]

And seeing the way that feels natural to other people, it gives you an idea of what’s possible. You know, what’s out there. And even if you’re not capable of—(correcting himself) or not capable. Even if it’s not your preferred way of working, seeing how can be done can give you ideas about what you’re gonna do. But it also— The exciting thing is also seeing that all jokes are built outta the same elements. You know, they all function based on the same mechanics, no matter whether it—

Jesse Thorn: That’s the mechanics. The beans go in the mouth!

(They laugh.)

Elliott Kalan: Exactly. Then there’s a gastric process that produces the gas. Yeah.

But like, in the book, I have examples from current standup comics. I have an example from Tristram Shandy, which is an 18th century novel. A bunch of examples from the Marx Brothers, ’cause they’re the funniest people who ever lived. There was that at one point I was like, “I’m gonna have such a wide variety of examples in this book. I’m not gonna have two examples from the same source.” And that fell out the wayside. ‘Cause I was like, “These Marx Brothers… like, they’re so funny. (Laughs.) I can do so much. There’s so many jokes they have that I like!”

Or I talk a little bit about Marcel Duchamp, who I think was one of the great art jokesters, you know? But there’s just so many within— Comedy is a lot of different things. Comedy is not necessarily just jokes. But even with the world of jokes, there’s so many different forms that it can take and so many different ways to use those same elements. And so, I was very inspired writing it, and I hope you are too… listeners. (Laughs.) When you read it.

Jesse Thorn: What is a way of working, a way of creating comedy, that you learned about that was surprising to you?

Elliott Kalan: Keeping it with the Marx Brothers, the fact that they would start with written material, and then they would continue to write basically on the road, workshopping their material. And their best material is stuff that they workshopped. Which all comedians do, essentially. Like, you go out and perform it, and then you adjust it based on that performance. But how much they really put stock not in “we’re geniuses; we’re so funny; we know what’s funny,” but in “the audience did not laugh this time; throw it away.”

And Groucho Marx said at some point, he goes, “Well, the audience helps. They write the material too. ‘Cause they tell us what to keep in the act and what not to keep in the act.” And I feel like there’s such an—

(A beep.)

There’s such an emphasis in modern standup at the very least, with like, “You gotta tell your truth! And if it makes someone uncomfortable, you’re doing your job! ‘Cause that’s what comedy is about, making people feel uncomfortable.”

And it’s like, well, not really. It’s about making people laugh and hopefully they enjoy themselves and maybe they think a little bit. And there was something almost weirdly comforting in hearing—reading about people that I consider some of the greatest comedic artists ever, that they were very willing to say— And Steven Wright talks about the same thing. If the audience doesn’t laugh, even if I like the joke, I have to get rid of it. Just the freedom that they felt to listen backwards and not to—and to abdicate a little bit of their authority. Because ultimately, you want the audience to laugh at what you’re saying.

And if there are— Every now and again, there’s maybe once or twice in generation, there’s some comedian or some comedy writer who is just so brilliant, so ahead of their time, that the audience just like doesn’t get it. But usually… this is not the case.

(They laugh.)

Usually, if the audience is not laughing, then it’s like, “Ough, what do I—? I gotta do something about this.” You know?

Jesse Thorn: So, Elliott, are you telling me that you’re taking the Ghostbusters out on the road?

Elliott Kalan: (Laughs.) Yep. That’s what we’re going do! It’s called Bustin’ Across America. We’re gonna hit 50 cities in 50 days.

(They laugh.)

I am so impressed by your by your 25 conversations for 25 years, or I don’t know how you’re—I don’t remember how you’re branding it.

Jesse Thorn: Yeah. 25 For 25.

Elliott Kalan: (Chuckling.) 25 for 25. That we gotta double it. ‘Cause 25 years is an amazing amount of time to be doing anything—let alone a radio show.

Jesse Thorn: It’s almost distressing to me.

Elliott Kalan: If you look at World War II, your show has lasted more than four times as long as that. The most titanic, violent conflict in the history of the world. And yet, if you put a timeline of your show and World War II next to it, you’d be like, “Well, this war wasn’t that long.”

Jesse Thorn: I’ve only invaded Poland three times in that time!

(They laugh.)

Elliott Kalan: But that fourth time— You’re doing great. You’re building up your armaments. I saw—you know, in the last episode, you’re talking about the reasons you’re developing to justify it. I think you’re gonna do great.

(Jesse giggles.)

I think this next invasion of Poland’s gonna be the one that really sticks—yeah—for you.

Jesse Thorn: Well, it’s clear, if you’re watching at home, that I have reached full loopiness. I’m grateful to you for hanging out and watching or watching later on the YouTube or listening on the radio. And I’m grateful to you for enjoying The Sound of Young America and Bullseye for these past 25 years every single week. Elliott, thank you for being my friend. Thank you for being a wonderful genius. I’m always happy to see you.

Transition: Funky, upbeat synth.

Jesse Thorn: That’s the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is created in the homes of me and the staff of Maximum Fun, as well as at Maximum Fun HQ in the historic jewelry district in downtown Los Angeles, California. This week, my senior producer Kevin Ferguson and I were actually in New York City saying hi to our friends at WNYC and having a good old time. I went to the Met.

[02:30:00]

I went to the MoMA. I walked on the highline. And we saw a great show on Broadway—Little Bear Ridge Road, with the amazing past Bullseye guest, Laurie Metcalf. New York City. I recommend it!

The show is produced by speaking into microphones. Our senior producer is Kevin Ferguson. Our producers, Jesus Ambrosio and Richard Robey. Our production fellow at Maximum Fun, Hannah Moroz. Our video producer is Daniel Speer. We get booking help on Bullseye from Mara Davis. Special thanks this week to Jordan, Jesse, Go! producer Jordan Kauwling, who lent us some extra production help on the night that we taped the 25 for 25 episode. Thanks to the other folks at Maximum Fun who lent a hand as well. It was quite the madhouse in our little office.

Our interstitial music comes from our friend Dan Wally, also known as DJW. You can find his music at DJWsounds.bandcamp.com. Our theme music, written and recorded by The Go! Team. It’s called “Huddle Formation”. Thanks to The Go! Team. Thanks to their label, Memphis Industries.

You can follow Bullseye on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. The entire 25 for 25 ordeal is available on our YouTube channel for free right now, along with video from our Bullseye 25th anniversary shows, now and upcoming. I think that’s about it. Just remember, all great radio hosts have a signature signoff.

Promo: Bullseye with Jesse Thorn is a production of MaximumFun.org and is distributed by NPR.

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