Transcript
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Three gavel bangs.
jesse thorn
Hey, friends. Bailiff Jesse here with some really awesome news. For the first time in years—actual years, Judge John Hodgman’s Circuit Court is hitting the road! We’re gonna be up and down the west coast, in Seattle, Portland, Denver, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and the Judge John Hodgman capital of the world: Port Townsend, Washington, in January and February. We’re kicking things off January 28th, wrapping things up February 7th. It is going to be an awesome night of justice delivered, plus a little bit of music and a lot of good times. That’s Seattle, Portland, Denver, San Francisco, LA, and Port Townsend, Washington. Go to MaximumFun.org/events. That’s MaximumFun.org/events for all the details about tickets. That’s MaximumFun.org/events. We’ll see you there.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
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Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast! I’m bailiff Jesse Thorn. We’re in chambers this week to clear the docket. And with me, as always, is the world’s greatest father of two, Judge John Hodgman.
john hodgman
I wish I could only live up to that barbeque apron, but that is—I’m just a—I’m just doing the best I can, like any other parent. And Jesse, this is not a regular docket, is it? This is a very special docket. We’re back in juvenile court! Dun, duuuun!
jesse
Is that the sound of juvenile court?!
john
That’s the sound that I was asked to make for Dick Wolf’s Law & Order: Juvenile Court spinoff.
jesse
Got it.
john
That did not get made. And it was not because it was maybe an unseemly topic for television, ‘cause there’s nothing too unseemly. It’s like they said, “Why don’t we get John Hodgman to make that sound instead of having the regular synthesizer or whatever do it?” And they hired me to do it. And it was so terrible that they canceled the show. Like, many working actors lost good paying SAG jobs. And everyone wrote a letter to the producers saying, “Can’t you just rerecord it? You already have the sound on file.” And they said, “No. John Hodgman just ruined it. Ruined the vibe.” Anyway!
jesse
Wow.
oscar thorn
Words.
jesse
My son just brought himself onto the show, unbidden. So, I’m gonna introduce him.
john
Woah, woah. Woah, woah. What—what—what is this? An episode of the Do-Boys? Alright.
jesse
No, this is the Judge John Hodgman, the juvenile court edition. And joining me in the studio here at Maximum Fun is my son, Oscar, age eight.
oscar
Nine!
jesse
Nine. Age nine.
john
[Cackles.] World’s best dad of three! [Jesse laughs.] Honestly, Jesse Thorn, Oscar, I’m gonna say this now in case you don’t know it. Your dad is a terrific dad.
jesse
Thank you, John. Did you know that I’m John Hodgman’s dad?
john
That’s right, Oscar.
jesse
It’s true. Oscar Thorn is here with me, my nine-year-old son. He’s back on the podcast. He’s been very excited to come back.
john
He’s back on that pod. Oscar Thorn, friend of the court, hello. How are you?
oscar
Good.
john
What did you do today, before this?
oscar
Nothing.
john
[Chuckling.] Okay!
jesse
Nothing? You played Fortnite with your sibling. [Oscar confirms.]
jesse
The perfect conversation starter finally fails. That’s because the wisdom of a child cannot be tricked, fooled. It cannot be buttered up. It cannot be talked down to. Nor can it be buttered up to.
oscar
What does that mean? I do not know what that means.
john
It means that you have a natural wisdom, and you see through my bull feces.
oscar
What are you saying?!
jesse
When John is full of baloney, you can tell. [Oscar agrees uncertainly.]
john
Yeah. What I’m saying is, you’re here to cut through the baloney. We’re gonna hear a number of cases that have been submitted mostly by children, mostly against their parents.
oscar
I’m excited. [Laughs.]
john
Yes! [Chuckles.] I think we know how you will rule. And some have been submitted by parents, against their own children. And in a court of law, normally in this fake court of law I decide who’s right or who’s wrong. But in this case, these kids deserve a jury of their peers. And even though you are peerless, you shall have the final ruling. Is that fair enough?
oscar
[Growling.] I have the power!
john
You have the power, exactly. So, let’s get into it.
jesse
Here’s a case from Alec in Los Angeles. “My father owns one of Stephen Hawking’s time traveler party invitations.”
john
Oh boy, oh boy. You know Stephen Hawking? You a big Stephen Hawking fan, Oscar?
oscar
[Whispering.] I have no idea who that person is at all.
john
[Chuckles.] Good. Let me tell you. Stephen Hawking was a very famous—what was he famous—I mean, smartie pants, but was an astrophysicist? A theoretical physicist?
jesse
Both. A little of each.
john
He was an incredibly smart person and thought about space and time.
jesse
He was the man behind the legendary film line, “As they approach the horizon of the black hole, they are turned into spaghetti.” [Chuckles.]
john
What is that? Which one is that?
jesse
That’s from A Brief History of Time, [laughing] the Errol Morris movie of Hawking’s famous book. “They are turned into spaghetti.”
john
“They are turned into—” And he spoke with the aid of a machine. So, he sounded like [demonstrating] a computer. And he was a—he was a theoretical physicist and cosmologist. He studied the cosmos. All of the stuff that makes up space and time. And he was very interested in time travel. Are you interested in time travel?
oscar
Whenever I think about it, it twists up my brain.
john
Yes. Exactly. So, get ready to get your brain twisted. ‘Cause Stephen Hawking—a bit of a pip. A bit of a prankster. He decided that if time travel were real, he could hold a cocktail party for time travelers from the future and then hold the cocktail party and then send out invitations the next day. The theory being that the time travelers from the future would eventually get those invitations and travel back in time to the party that happened before he even sent out the invitations.
oscar
Oooooh myyy goood.
john
Or whatever. Riiight?
oscar
Wait, that’s so confuse—what?! No, I understand, but—
jesse
So, he had the party. And then, the next day, he sent out invitations, because if you’re in the future, then you can travel back in time. You’d get the invitation. It would be no problem to go to the party. ‘Cause you would just travel back in time to go to it.
john
So, guess how many people showed up to the party.
oscar
Probably like a lot?
jesse
From the future?
john
No one from the future came to the party. It was just Stephen Hawking by himself, and a sign saying—
oscar
Wait, did he actually do it?
john
Yeah, he did it! He had the party. He put up a—he put up a sign saying, “Welcome time travelers.” And I think he put out some hors d’oeuvres, some little snacks, some little nibbles. And maybe some sparkling cider, I don’t know. Maybe a big bottle of Johnny Walker Red. I don’t know. You don’t know. The point is, no one showed up, and Stephen Hawking had a good, computerized chuckle to himself, ‘cause he showed all of us who believe in time travel that we’re full of poop.
jesse
Yeah. So, let’s get to the case, Oscar. “My father collects stuff like this. He sees this invitation as a historical artifact. I want to destroy it. Why? Well, I believe the internet will cease to exist in the next century. So, there will be no digital record of the invitations. If there are no digital invitations and the physical invitations are also destroyed, it could explain why no one showed up at Hawking’s party. “My father wants to keep his treasure. By destroying the invitation, I wish to light a spark of hope that there is still a possibility, even if it is only a sliver, that time travel is possible.”
oscar
Oh, wow. This got very confusing. Um. You know what? Let’s just go with, um—yeah, [growling] let’s destroy it. [John and Jesse laugh.]
john
I think that you’ve made Alec a very happy person. [Oscar agrees.] Look, Alec is 12 years old. Some people like to write long letters to the court of Judge John Hodgman. I love it. There was a—
oscar
[Under his breath.] Destroy it. Destroy it.
john
We had to edit a little bit for space here, but one of Alec’s great sentences was this one. You ready for this great sentence, Oscar? [He confirms.] This is Alec writing, the kid who’s gonna destroy this invitation. “I am but a 12-year-old, but I do grasp the concepts of time travel.” [Jesse chuckles.] Alec’s theory is that if he destroys every physical invitation and the internet ceases to exist and there’s no record of this party ever happening, then that would explain why no future time travelers ever got the invitation, and that’s why Stephen Hawking was stood up.
oscar
Okay. That makes sense now.
john
You want him to destroy it, then?
oscar
Yes, I like destruction.
john
Just for the sake of destruction. You don’t care about the time travel part.
oscar
Um, you know, I feel like there’s a high possibility that this will go wrong. And reality will collapse. But that’s fine. [John chuckles an unsure “okay”.] And plus, I don’t believe in any of this time travel stuff. So, let’s just choose one or the other, and I choose destruction.
john
Alright, fair enough. Name the method of destruction. This is a paper invitation, I presume, that his dad got off of eBay or something.
oscar
Do they own a wrecking ball?
jesse
Would a wrecking ball destroy a paper invitation?
oscar
Oh. That’s true. Um. Maybe you can use your hands.
john
Just tear it up?
jesse
The wrecking balls of the body.
oscar
And then, you can—and then you can just destroy it, throw it in the trashcan, throw the trashcan out the window, and then melt the trashcan.
jesse
What do you think, John?
john
What do I think? Oh yeah, I forgot. [Chuckles.] I forgot. I was just having a good time with my friends, the Thorns. Um.
jesse
‘Cause I’ll tell you what I think, John. [John agrees.] My son’s fealty to destruction is second only to my fealty to stuff. As the proprietor of a vintage store, I could not in good conscious destroy something as cool as a time travel party invitation from Stephen Hawking.
john
I mean, here’s the thing. Alec has hoped that time travel may be developed. Stephen Hawking, kind of a stick in the mud on this point, destroyed his hope to a certain degree by setting up this stunt of a dud of a party in order to cast doubt upon the idea of time travel from the future to the present.
oscar
Hm. This is confusing.
john
I know, it’s very confusing. This is a mean thing to do. This invitation in a memento of kind of a mean-spirited prank, but it is part of history. I mean, what I would say to Alec is this. Your dad loves this thing. He loves this little piece of paper. It is a part of history. Stephen Hawking was an incredibly important and influential thinker who also I think had a sense of humor. I appreciate that. And you kind of don’t wanna destroy evidence that this person lived. I would suggest that it’s possible that you could acknowledge that another solution for why no time travelers showed up at this party, which is simply that it was a dumb party.
jesse
Yeah. Nobody wanted to hang out with old Stephen Hawking. He probably would just talk about theoretical physics and what happens when you approach the event horizon of the black hole the whole time. And you’re like, “Hey, how ‘bout if dinner turned into spaghetti?” [They laugh.]
john
Right. “I’m getting a little hungry, here.” If I’m He Who Remains at the End of Time, Kang the Conqueror himself, and Alec’s dad’s physical invitation finally finds its way to me—I mean, I’d look at this thing and it’s like I got a million invitations. I got a million things to do. Time travel could be expensive. It could be onerous. Like, I turned down an invitation to go to the Bell House to see some of my favorite comedians and friends! Because it’s below 50 degrees and seven blocks away. There are a lot of reasons why no one would show up at this thing. You don’t have to destroy this physical invitation. And what’s more, you don’t have to destroy this physical invitation because there’s still invitations out there. Unless it becomes a quest. Alec, unless you become like Liam Neeson, scouring all of Europe for all of ill-doers, obsessed with finding these invitations and destroying them, this one act of wanton destruction will bring you no justice, and will bring Oscar only delight. That’s said, Oscar is the jury of the peers in this case. So, the ruling stands. You have—Alec, you have the right to destroy this thing. But I would just say, think again. You might wanna remember your father in the future. You are a time traveler! You’re traveling into the future. You might wanna look back on this little thing that your father had and think, “Jeez, my dad sure was weird.”
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Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Here’s something from Maude, in Ottawa, Ontario. “My name is Maude. I’m in grade four. When my mum and dad pick me up from after school care, they insist on singing out loud while walking down the street. Often, annoying songs like ‘Lucky Ducks’ from The Bob’s Burgers Movie. Please make them stop.”
john
Oscar, you ever walk down the street with your dad, and he sings a song out loud?
oscar
[Softly.] No, my dad [inaudible].
john
No. Well, this is—we got Maude’s parents to sing the song that drives Maude up a tree. This is what it sounds like when your parents sing out loud when you’re walking to school.
clip
[One of Maude’s parents sings “Lucky Duck” acapella.] Some lucky ducks get all the luck But that’s not us unlucky schmucks
john
[Mumbling.] They didn’t really sing a lot of that song, did they, Jesse? [Jesse confirms.] How would you feel if you were being walked down the streets of Ontario, Canada, to your grade four class and Jesse Thorn—your father—was singing that song?
oscar
I mean, I wish they said why the parents are doing that, so I have more of a reason to not just say the kid gets to not have their parents do that.
john
You are a model of judicial restraint. Is there any more evidence that we can offer Oscar? Maybe another case? Isn’t there—didn’t we get another letter similar to this?
jesse
Yeah, we also had one from Gertie—who is seven—and Gertie’s dad sings while taking her to school. And Gertie says, “He doesn’t sing real songs. He sings about the things he sees like he is Weird Al.”
john
[Chuckles.] Not sure why that’s like Weird Al.
jesse
Is that a fair characterization of the artistry of Weird Al?
oscar
Look, let’s just say the kid doesn’t have to have their parents singing while walking, ‘cause that’s just strange.
john
Well, before we just rule against parents singing out loud and embarrassing their kids, let me put this thought experiment to you. Here comes another brain twister.
oscar
Oh no.
john
Oscar.
oscar
[Warily.] What?
john
Do you like making sounds with your mouth? [Oscar confirms.] So do I. Here’s one that I like to make [clicks his tongue several times].
oscar
That one’s horrid. Horrid and bad.
john
Horrid and bad. Let me hear a good one. [Oscar makes popping sounds.] I’m not picking that up, exactly. Can you get closer on the mic? [More popping sounds.] Now, when you make mouth sounds, does your dad like it?
oscar
Well, usually I don’t do it near my dad.
john
Oh, okay, you just do it on your own.
oscar
I’m always upstairs playing a video game.
john
Making mouth sounds. So, you’re not making mouth sounds walking down the street, embarrassing your dad. [Oscar giggles.] It’s just parents are making mouth sounds, and the songs—in the form of songs, making their kids feel embarrassed.
jesse
Oscar, do I ever sing an embarrassing song.
oscar
No.
jesse
Do I make embarrassing jokes? [Oscar confirms.] Like what?
oscar
Like pouring soda on my head.
john
[Surprised into laughter.] Wh—?! Oh no.
jesse
Did I really pour soda on your head?
oscar
You haven’t—what do you mean? You’ve poured bubble water on my head before.
jesse
Just bubble water, not like—not like soda pop. Not like a coke. [Oscar confirms.] Just wet, not sticky. [Oscar confirms.] That’s really funny, though.
oscar
And it’s wet.
jesse
Yeah. [Oscar laughs.] So, that’s just an example of me being a really funny dad.
oscar
I have my—I have my answer. [They laugh.] Already. It is that no more annoying parents. [Jesse laughs.]
john
No more annoying—I wish I—I wish I could make that ruling.
jesse
Kids rule, parents drool. That’s Oscar’s ruling.
john
I wish I could make that ruling. You know, the problem is, if I really ruled on no more annoying parents, we’d never have another episode of Judge John Hodgman again. The truth is, parents will annoy you whether you’re age seven or in grade four, in Ottawa, Ontario.
oscar
Dad annoys me because he—something that’s weird about dad is ‘cause he gets paid for making bad jokes. [They laugh.]
jesse
God, what am I, a chestnut? ‘Cause I’m getting roasted right now!
john
Oscar, you gotta stay off the Reddit, my friend. Jesse, you asked me my opinion at one point. And now, I’ll ask you your opinion. What do you think about parents singing out loud against their own children’s objections, taking them to school?
jesse
I just think it’s a beautiful thing for parents and children to share. The objections, I mean.
john
To share the objections? I don’t understand.
jesse
Yeah. That the—that the parents are giving the children an opportunity to sigh, whine, and complain about them while engaging in a beautiful, positive activity, which is singing songs from the very funny Bob’s Burgers Movie. Specifically, the song [chuckling] that all of the evil carnies sing at their carnie camp. [John laughs.] Semi-evil. They—there is—look. There’s character development among the carnies. I’m not gonna—no spoilers for The Bob’s Burgers Movie, here.
john
I can’t abide by the ruling “no more annoying parents”. Parents are always gonna be a little bit annoying, in different ways at different phases of your life, children. And I think that probably Maude and Gertie’s respective dads—and why is it always dads? Well, I guess it’s mum and dad in Maude’s case—they sing to express their joy at having a child to walk to school! They think it’s fun for everybody. But—
oscar
So, they sing the duck song.
john
That’s right. They sing the duck song, “Lucky Ducks”.
oscar
Why that song?
john
I guess it’s ‘cause it’s catchy and fun to sing for them.
oscar
Well, can they—can’t they sing the wall song about the wall?
john
Which song?
oscar
The wall song.
jesse
Was there a song about the wall in The Bob’s Burger Movie?
oscar
No. I just made it up off the top of my head.
jesse
Oh, I guess Oscar is just pulling a Weird Al and singing songs about whatever he sees!
john
[Chuckling.] That’s right; there’s a wall there! That’s just the definition of Weird Al’s careers.
oscar
Sing the [chuckling] wall song, yeah. That song. The wall song.
jesse
Oscar, you and I went to see The Bob’s Burgers Movie. Do you remember anything about it?
oscar
I remember there was a wall song. [They laugh.]
john
Uhh, I don’t know. I—you know, it’s settled law that if it’s not fun for everyone, it’s no fun at all. And it’s not fun for Maude or for Gertie. I think that the—I think that they’ll look back with sadness when they tell their parents to shut up and stop singing the same way I think Alec will look back in sadness if he burns that invitation. But I will caution the parents to choose their moments.
oscar
Just sing the wall song, and you’ll be fine. Okay, parents?
john
Sing the wall song and you’ll be fine. Exactly.
oscar
Okay. Sing the wall song. Sing it.
john
That sounds fair. I mean, there’s no way—
oscar
The wall song’s the best song.
john
There’s no—here’s the thing, Maude and Gertie, there’s no way for me or God or whatever to ever make parents less annoying than they are. But most of the time, one hope’s they’re annoying because they love you and they have errors of judgement.
oscar
Yeah, but it would make them a little less annoying if they just sing the wall song.
john
Yeah. And I’m not gonna rule against singing ever. That’s like ruling against smiling or laughing. [Oscar continues mumbling “wall song” under his breath.] They’re gonna find some way to embarrass you. Better stick with the devil you know in the form of these songs.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
oscar
The waaaall songs! Sing it!
john
The waaall song!
oscar
Sing the waaaall song!
jesse
Parents, leave those kids alooone! [John laughs.]
oscar
Just sing the wall song! The wall song! [Chuckles.] Sing it. Sing it. Sing the waaaall song! The wall song! [Laughs.]
john
Jesse, I think we’re gonna take a quick break.
jesse
We’re gonna take a quick break, hear from this week’s partners. We’ll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
john
Oh, and here’s a tease. Also, a new segment that I just invented, called More Mouth Sounds. [Jesse laughs.]
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
You’re listening to Judge John Hodgman. I’m bailiff Jesse Thorn. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast, always brought to you by you—the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who’s gone to MaximumFun.org/join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org/join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by Marlow.
john
The most important thing to my sleep quality is my pillow. I’ll be tossing and turning all night long, looking for that cooler side of the pillow. The best part about the Marlow pillow is both sides are the cooler side of the pillow.
jesse
Hold on. Hold on, John. In my opinion, the best part of the Marlow pillow is that it has two unique zippers on each side to customize your sleep experience! You can unzip them. You get soft and plush. You keep them zipped, you get dense and firm. Somewhere in between? The support that’s perfect for you.
john
Hold on, to my mind, the best part about the Marlow pillow—it was designed utilizing NASA technology. That means it’s the pillow the Mars rover uses.
jesse
Holy cow! This thing is made from all tang!
john
No, not tang. Mostly memory foam and polyester fiber, but NASA grade stuff. Plus, it comes from Brooklinen. You know I love Brooklinen. They have over eight years of experience in the sleep space and over 100,000 five-star reviews for their line of sheets, comforters, and more. And their name sounds like the name of my hometown of Brookline, Massachusetts.
jesse
Brooklinen, they have experience in the sleep space and experience in space sleep! [Chuckles.] [John echoes “space sleep” through laughter.] It’s the perfect time to invest in your rest with Marlow’s biggest sale of the year, happening now.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week, we’re dispensing juvenile justice with our special guest, age eight or nine or so Oscar Thorn. [Oscar groans.]
john
Welcome back, Oscar.
oscar
Ooga booga.
jesse
It’s too bad we don’t have any cases about fish. That’s Oscar’s greatest interest right now. [Oscar agrees.] How many fish do you have in your tank right now, Os?
oscar
Eight.
jesse
What kinds are they?
oscar
Guppies and tetras.
john
Guppies and tetras. And what are their names again?
oscar
[Whispering.] I’m trying to remember. I remember one’s named Technoblade. One’s named Kyle. One’s named Gregory.
john
Technoblade, Kyle, Gregory.
oscar
And then, there’s [inaudible], and then I have an—and then, one of them is called Eater. And then, the last one I have not named, yet. ‘Cause I keep forgetting, ‘cause I’m lazy.
john
[Laughs.] I don’t think you are. A good name is hard to—it’s hard to come by. Maybe we’ll have come up with one by the end of this case.
oscar
Yes, I just spent all my brain cells trying to remember my fishes’ names. [John and Jesse laugh.]
jesse
Here’s a case from Sasha from San Antonio, Texas. “My nine-year-old son is a fan of Kid’s Bop. They’re a kids’ singing group who cover pop songs, editing out any bad language.
john
Oscar, are you familiar with Kid’s Bop?
oscar
I’ve heard of Kid’s Bop. They did “A Nightmare on My Street” thing, but they destroyed like the entire purpose of it, since it’s a horror song. And it was funny.
john
They sweetened it up. The famous DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince song, “A Nightmare on My Street”.
jesse
I think a good theme song for this week’s episode of Judge John Hodgman would be “Parents Just Don’t Understand”.
john
[Laughing.] That’s true. They really don’t.
jesse
Speaking of the edgy rap oeuvre of DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.
john
There’s nothing to hate about DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.
jesse
They’re great. Okay. Here’s the rest, here. “Now, my son has been listening to the original versions, especially “Driver’s License” by Olivia Rodrigo. He likes to sing along to this song, including the F word in the chorus. I say that’s inappropriate for a nine-year-old. He says it’s okay when it’s part of a song. He also says that when we drove to Austin to see Kid’s Bop live, I made him listen to Max Fun podcasts that had F bombs in them. Does he have a case?”
john
Mmm! Oscar, are you familiar with the F word.
oscar
I am. [John affirms.] ‘Cause my dad yells it a lot when he’s mad.
jesse
[Chuckling.] I don’t yell it that much. Once in a while.
oscar
Whenever you’re mad, you just scream it.
jesse
No, very, very rarely.
oscar
No, that is a lie. Trust me.
john
Yeah, bailiff Jesse Thorn, shut your F hole. [Jesse laughs.] I heard you say the F word before we even started recording. It’s okay, we’re grownups. We can swear. What’s the policy in the Thorn house about swearing at the age of nine?
jesse
In my house, we are not vehemently anti-swearing, but we do ask the kids to remember that there are people who could feel bad if they swore, and that there are contexts where it’s appropriate to swear and ones where it isn’t.
john
That’s right. I used to take my kids, when they were little, to Shopsin’s General Store, which is a lunch counter owned and operated by the now late Kenny Shopsin, one of the most notoriously foul-mouthed people in the world. And I would cringe a little bit when he would go on a long, long very, very F bomb laden tirade. And then I realized they’re gonna learn it somehow. They might as well learn from the best. He was one of the best F Bombers in the biz. Almost as good as Olivia Rodrigo, I guess! What do you think? Should this kid be singing the F bomb—singing along to a song with the F bomb in it? Yes or no, Oscar?
oscar
I mean… I’d say I just feel like it would make sense.
jesse
Do you ever notice swear words in songs that I’m listening to in the car?
oscar
Yes! [John snorts and tries not to laugh.] Especially rap.
jesse
Yeah, I do listen to some rap songs with swears in them. [Oscar confirms.]
john
You’re never gonna hear that with DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince.
jesse
That’s true! They keep it clean.
john
They keep it clean!
jesse
Except for the horror themes.
john
Yeah, well, clean up the horror themes, obviously. “Nightmare on My Street.” In any case, I’m inclined to agree with Oscar. You opened the door, Sasha, with these foul-mouthed Max Fun podcasts. I can’t imagine. Certainly not on—certainly not listening to Judge John Hodgman. So, I admit I am prejudiced against you, Sasha. But I will not recuse.
jesse
I’m frankly terrified that Sasha heard Jordan, Jesse, Go!. [Laughs.]
john
Yeah! I mean, you know, you’ve set a precedent in your own car of listening to things with F bombs in them. It would be pretty funny if you were singing along or mouthing along to whole episodes of Jordan, Jesse, Go! that you had memorized, Sasha. That would be incredible.
jesse
Oscar, have you ever heard an episode of Jordan, Jesse, Go!?
oscar
No.
jesse
Okay, that’s for the best.
oscar
Why?
jesse
‘Cause it’s just for the best for everyone. [Laughs.] But especially people who shouldn’t hear adult themes.
john
But I would say that, you know, not only have you opened the door by playing those bad word podcasts, but also—you know, Kid’s Bop, you heard Mr. Oscar Thorn, and his opinion of Kid’s Bop is they took the best part out of a perfectly good song, “Nightmare on My Street”. They took all the horror out of it. Right?
oscar
Yeah, and it was a horror song. And it was actually pretty funny, because there was no horror in it, because they had to get rid of all the horror. And it was funny.
john
Look, there are lots of amazing songs out there, for both kids and adults, that don’t have bad words in them. Listen to those! You clean—listen. Zendaya, I know you’re probably listening to this podcast. Love your work. I know that you were in Kid’s Bop. I learned that when I Wikipediaed Kid’s Bop. Please don’t get upset when I say Kid’s Bop is evil. [They chuckle.] I just, I haven’t even listened to it. It’s like, “Don’t take the thing that makes it a thing out of the thing! Right?!
oscar
Yes! That’s what I’m saying.
john
That’s what you’re saying! Don’t take the thing that makes it a thing out of the thing. All you’re gonna do, Sasha, is birth in your child’s imagination a thirst and a hunger for the real thing. Olivia Rodrigo sang [censored]. There, you can bleep that out. I don’t mind saying it in front of you, Oscar, ‘cause I know that your dad says it all the time. Aaall the time.
jesse
I don’t say it all the time, just once in a while when something—
oscar
What do you mean once in a while?! You did it like yesterday.
jesse
Once a month, maybe. I did do it yesterday.
oscar
You did that like yesterday.
jesse
I did it yesterday. [Oscar giggles.]
john
And he probably also says kaka and poopoo too, is my feeling.
jesse
[Softly.] I would never. I would never.
john
If it’s playing in the car, you can sing along. Figuring out how to teach kids about when and when it is not appropriate, both in their age and in the context in which they are moving through the world, to say swear words is an important job of being a parent. And hypocritically saying, "F word for me, not for thee,” simply because it's a podcast? Forget it, Sasha. You’re out of line. I find in favor of Sasha’s child.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Here’s something from Crayton in Silverton, Oregon. “We have four cats. Five, if you include Lady Bear, who lives in the attic and hates me.” [John snorts quietly and Oscar chuckles.] “I think five is plenty. My eight-year-old daughter wants more. She says there’s no maximum number of cats.”
oscar
That’s true.
jesse
“They sleep all day, and 13 could fit on the couch alone. She has calculated this.”
oscar
Oh, that’s amazing. [John laughs.]
jesse
“She says if the cats’ litter is changed regularly, there is no difference between 3 and 30. Who’s right?” [Chuckles.]
oscar
Honestly?
john
Yeah! Honestly.
oscar
As long as you know that they’re just gonna sleep a lot—they do play, but they sleep a lot—and that is the reason that she’s right. Because they sleep, and as long as like you’re taking care of them—like, I wouldn’t say this with fish, ‘cause with fish like it’s like in a tank. But like you have a house with like pets like that. So. It makes sense.
john
Yeah, but if you got 13 cats on the couch, where are you gonna sit?
oscar
You’re gonna sit on the floor like the cats used to. [John laughs a “woah”.]
john
The cats are in charge now, ace! [Oscar giggles.]
jesse
Oscar, we have one dog. How many dogs do you think we could have in our house before it would be too many?
oscar
I mean, I feel like dogs are different from cats, ‘cause dogs—like, when I see our dog, Sissy, sitting down looking straight at me, I know she wants pets. But what I don’t want is I don’t want 50 dogs all staring at me with puppy eyes wanting me to pet them. [John laughs.]
jesse
So, it’s the fact that cats don’t necessarily like people that means you can have an infinite number of cats in your home.
oscar
Yes. And that’s also why we don’t have a cat.
john
If you had an infinite number of cats and an infinite number of microphones, eventually one of them would release the Judge John Hodgman podcast. [Jesse laughs.] That’s just facts.
jesse
I can’t imagine if we got more dogs that they would all be as desperate to get petted as Sissy. Unless it was a bunch of chihuahuas. If it was a bunch of chihuahuas, we might end up with more Sissys. [Oscar laughs.]
john
So, you’re saying you can have too many fish in a tank, because the tank is an enclosed space and that the fish wouldn’t be comfortable. [Oscar confirms.] And too many—you can have too many dogs—
oscar
Because dogs stare at you.
john
Because dogs stare at you and need your attention, whereas cats are just—
oscar
Cats just like sleeping.
john
They’re just a bunch of sociopaths who want nothing to do with you anyway. You might as well house as many of them as possible. I’m gonna say this, though, to Crayton’s daughter: maybe you don’t notice that cats do more than just sleep. I know that you are aware that they poop and pee.
oscar
The only time I’ve ever like seen a cat, it was sitting in a chair doing nothing. That is the only time I’ve seen a cat in person. Sitting on a chair doing nothing.
jesse
What about walking down the street? You’ve seen tons of cats walking down the street.
john
You’ve only seen a cat in a chair one time. This reminds me—you know that novel, Oscar, A Hundred Years of Solitude? Of course, you do. “Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendía remembered the time his father took him into a room to see a cat in chair.” It’s a good joke for people who like Gabriel García Márquez. That was off the dome too, by the way, Jesse. I didn’t need to look that up. I remember that opening line. It’s a good one. Multiple tenses. That’s a time traveling one. “Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, he remembered—” Never mind. Let’s move on. I’m gonna say this. I hate to disagree with you, Oscar, but as the owner of one cat, I know how much that cat not only poops and pees. I also know that cat is too dumb to pee in the same place twice. And I also know that cat pukes a lot too. Throws up. I love that cat so much. But if I had two or three or four of them? All I’m saying is there’s probably a reason Lady Bear is up in the attic, ‘cause Lady Bear wants to be out of there! Lady Bear does not wanna be around those other cats or those humans. I think that there’s a limit to the amount of cats that you can have. There is definitely a maximum. And I would say four with one in the attic is about where it tops off. Unless you’re Earnest Hemmingway and you’re living in Key West, and they have free access to the outdoors. But enclosed in one tank? Oh, by the way, don’t keep your cats in tanks. So, I rule in favor of Crayton. And Crayton’s eight-year-old daughter, you know, when you have a house of your own, you can get as many cats as you want. But I think the two of you should sit down and watch Grey Gardens together this weekend, and you’ll decide. You’ll see what I’m talking about.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Let’s take a quick break. When we come back, a terrifying interpretation of a children’s book.
oscar
Cliffhanger time!
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
promo
Music: Fun, wacky synth. Ellen Weatherford: You probably already have a favorite animal. Maybe it’s a powerful apex predator like a tiger, or a cute and cuddly panda. And those are great! But have you considered something a little more unconventional? Christian Weatherford: Could I perhaps interest you in the Greenland shark, which can live for nearly 400 years? Or maybe the jewel wasp, who performs brain surgery on cockroaches to control their minds. Ellen: On Just the Zoo of Us, we review animals by giving them ratings out of ten in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics. Listen with friends and family of all ages to find your new favorite animal with Just the Zoo of Us, on MaximumFun.org or wherever you get podcasts. [Music ends.]
promo
Music: Sophisticated harpsichord. Travis McElroy: [In a cartoonishly hoity-toity accent.] Hellooo! I’m a stuffy dowager countess! Teresa McElroy: Travis? Travis: I’m judging everybody’s manners! Teresa: Oh no. Travis: [Speaking normally.] Shmanners isn’t judgy. It’s about teaching you to be your best self and be a little more confident when you enter social situations that you don’t understand, and maybe also teach you a little bit about history you didn’t know or give you interesting things to talk about at parties. Teresa: Yeah, like the secret life of Emily Post. Travis: Ooor like why wristwatches are the way that they are. Teresa: We can talk about table manners from the Victorian era. Travis: Sure! Or what it’s like to attend a regency ball. Teresa: Yeah! Travis: You can find all that and more if you listen to Shmanners on Maximum Fun or wherever your podcasts come from, I guess! Teresa: Manners-shmanners. Get it? [Music ends in a playful chord.]
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Judge Hodgman, we’re taking a break from the docket. Let’s talk about what we’ve got coming up.
john
Jesse Thorn, I’m thrilled, thrilled to say that knocking all pieces of wood—including my own wooden skull—we’re getting back out there in the world. As I’ve mentioned before, Monte Belmonte and I are doing our Hodgmonte Holiday Spectacular, with special guests Jonathan Colton and Jean Grae at the Shae Theater in Turners Falls, Massachusetts. That’s December 17th. It’s coming right up there. Just google Hodgmonte and it’ll take you right to where you need to go to get those tickets. H-O-D-G-M-O-N-T-E. But as exciting as that, San Francisco Sketch Fest tickets are on sale! That’s right! We’re going back to Sketch Fest, San Francisco, in person! Judge John Hodgman live at the Sydney Goldstein Theater. Ooh! Beautiful theater! February 4th at 7:30PM. And we obviously will need your cases—your disputes—for that show, in San Francisco. If you’re in San Francisco or the Bay Area and you’d like us to consider your dispute for possible adjudication on stage, submit them now please, at MaximumFun.org/JJHo. Just let us know in the subject line or anywhere in the email that you’re gonna be at the live show and you’d like us to consider your dispute for Judge John Hodgman live at Sketch Fest.
jesse
Get your tickets now. SFSketchFest.com. And hey, John—that same day that you’re gonna be doing Hodgmonte, December 17th, out on the east coast, I’m gonna be out here on the west coast in southern California, at the Pasadena Vintage Flea Market. Which is a really cool flea market. I did it two months ago—a bunch of Judge John Hodgman people came out and said hi. It was really nice to meet people. But it’s gonna be the perfect place to get your last-minute holiday gifts. It’s not just me. It will be dozens and dozens of vendors. Got a good buddy named John Miner who’s gonna be selling some great records. I saw all kinds of great stuff. There was a woman who brought a—like, a full restored ’50s pickup truck full of flowers. I thought that was pretty great. But yeah, come out. Say hi to me. And say hi to my tiny, Japanese van at the South Pasadena Vintage Flea Market. And look, I’m not gonna say that you have to bring me honey from your backyard, but I will say that longtime MaxFunster, CruftBox, did bring me honey from his backyard. So, I’m gonna need you to—if you don’t do that, just look around the house and see what artisanal products you have to bring me. Whatever it is, I’ll accept it. You know. At the end of the day. But—
john
Homemade kombucha?
jesse
Sure. Eeeeh, sure. Why not? Bring the booch. [Chuckles.]
john
Bring the booch.
jesse
December 17th. And if you’re not in southern California, of course, go to PutThisOnShop.com and do your holiday shopping. It’s getting up on the last minute, but we—man, we got some great treasures. So, please do that. We’ll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
jesse
Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We’re clearing the docket and we’re talking juvenile justice with our guest judge, Oscar Thorn.
oscar
Hellooooo. Ooga booga.
john
Hellooooo.
oscar
Hellooo.
john
Great job resetting yourself, Oscar. That’s fantastic. For people just joining the podcast, this is the sound of Oscar’s voice.
oscar
[Whispering.] Hello. Alright, let’s continue on.
john
[Chuckling.] Okay, thank you. It’s good to have you here, Oscar, to keep things moving along seriously. If I remember correctly, this is a case that comes from Australia. Is that right, Jesse?
jesse
The Antipodes. Something from Joel. “My ten-year-old daughter, Zoey, and I have a banana dispute. She says banana bread and banana cake are the same, because their ingredients are identical. I say they’re different. Banana cake is cakey. Banana bread is dense. It can be toasted and spread with butter, like bread. Who’s right?”
john
Oscar, do you like banana bread?
oscar
I don’t—I’ve never—I think—have I had banana bread before?
john
I think you would remember. It’s like, um—it tastes like, uh, garbage? So, you would probably remember if you had it. Because you have to—you make banana bread with bananas that have gone bad. It is a way to—not gone bad, but they’ve gotten a little brown and mushy. And you make banana bread with it in order to extend the life of the banana that you probably should not have bought in the first place. I don’t mean to influence your decision here, but I’m just—I just wondered if you had an opinion on banana bread. Some people do. I definitely do have an opinion on banana bread. It’s garbage. [Oscar chuckles.] Do you have an opinion on banana cake?
jesse
Judge Hodgman, you gotta be careful. Because one time I think on this podcast—maybe on Jordan, Jesse, Go!—I described banana bread as garbage bread because it is bread made from the literal garbage in your home. The bananas that are too old to eat. Which, I mean, to be fair I do throw them in my freezer and save them for smoothies.
oscar
But Dad, it’s recycling.
jesse
It is recycling.
oscar
But it’s horrible recycling that doesn’t make sense and it’s a horrible decision, and I don’t know who invented banana bread, but they made a big mistake.
jesse
Yeah, it’s pretty gross. [John laughs.] Especially when it has like walnuts in it. Oof. Give me a break.
john
I don’t think you—I don’t think you said it on this podcast. I’m sorry you didn’t. You must’ve said it on Jordan, Jesse, Go! and you must have said, “It’s [censored] garbage bread.”
jesse
It was—I don’t think I have ever touched a third rail as electrified as banana bread. Honestly, it’s possible that like Linda Holmes swatted me.
john
[Laughs.] I know people love banana bread. And you can love what you love. You can like what you like. I think it tastes like garbage, and I know—as my friend, bailiff Jesse Thorn, says—it’s made from garbage.
jesse
It’s a classic example of a category of food to which I am opposed that also includes most muffins. Which is things that have all of the negative health effects of desserts but are not actually desserts. [Chuckles.] Like, just eat something good!
john
Right. Just eat something—if you wanna have a sweet treat, have a good one. Have, for example, some banana cake!
jesse
Sounds nice. I love banana puddin’.
john
Banana puddin’?
oscar
Puddin’.
jesse
Banana puddin’ with Nilla wafers? Gimme it. Num, num, num.
oscar
I’ve had different kinds of puddin’, but I don’t know if I’ve had banana puddin’. Probably.
jesse
I think we’ve had banana pudding together before, yeah. [Oscar agrees.]
john
Oscar, did I ever tell you that I grew up in a town called Brookline, Massachusetts?
oscar
Uuuuuh, I remember you telling me that, but I forgot it.
john
Did I ever tell you that I used to work at the movie theater—the old-timey movie theater that showed old-timey movies? And right next door to the movie theater had been a coffee place. A fancy coffee place, called The Coffee Connection. And both my very good friend Jay and the person who is now my wife—and a whole human being in her own right—also worked there. We all used to hang around, but then the coffee place went out of business. You know what replaced it?
oscar
What?
john
A pudding parlor. [They chuckle.] Not an ice cream store. A pudding parlor.
jesse
What’s a pudding parlor?!
john
You would walk in. It was like a gourmet ice cream store, but instead of like—instead of having a list of like—uh, you know, sweet cream, rocky road, whatever—they had all these different puddings. Different flavors of pudding.
jesse
Sounds like the name of a private club for adults.
john
It was not—well, it wasn’t called The Pudding Parlor. Of course, you know what it was called. [Beat.] This is a true story.
jesse
Pudding on the Ritz?
john
Pudding It First. [They chuckle.] Pudding on the Ritz would’ve been better. Pudding It First. I think it lasted seven months. I had one pudding from there. And I probably would’ve ordered banana pudding. ‘Cause here’s the thing, I don’t have a sweet tooth. But I do like the taste of banana desserts. I like a banana pudding, with Nilla wafers. I like bananas foster. Do you know what a bananas foster is, Oscar?
oscar
Nope!
john
They take bananas, and they set them on fire. They pour brandy over them, and they set it on fire.
oscar
Wow, that is—you’re lying.
john
I’m not lying, sir. I am not lying. [Oscar “wow”s.] I would not lie.
jesse
I’ll say this for banana bread. Like bananas foster, it improves a lot—
oscar
I honestly forgot what the case was. We’re just talking about how garbage banana bread is.
jesse
Yeah, I mean, that’s what this show is.
oscar
Oh. [Skeptically.] Okay.
john
Well, that’s a good point, Oscar. Here’s the case. Are banana bread and banana cake the same thing? That’s what this Australian’s daughter says. Now, I’d never heard of banana cake. So, Joel from Melbourne, Australia, sent me a link to a recipe for banana cake. Can Oscar see this? [Oscar confirms and Jesse “ooh”s.] Ooh! Banana. Cake.
jesse
Oscar, how would you describe that banana cake?
oscar
So, it’s like a flat, brown, plate-looking thing? With like cream on top of it. And then another weird plate thing with cream on top of it? [Jesse affirms.] And then more cream on top of that with bananas on it.
jesse
Yeah, and the brown plate things, that’s the cake. Right? That’s some cake. So, there’s layers of cake, layers of cream, and there’s banana slices in the layers of cream.
john
Before we go to the other link that Joel sent: Oscar, that thing we were just looking at—if I handed that to you and said, “Would you like a slice of this bread?” Would you think—what would you think of me?
oscar
I would think you were just being an idiot.
john
[Suppressing a laugh.] Mm-hm! Exactly so. ‘Cause it looks—
oscar
Just like my dad is at all times of day.
john
[Chuckling.] Oooh! Okay. The point is it looks like a cake. Now, let’s take a look at this banana bread.
oscar
No, it looks—it looks—no, it looks like a weird pancake. Kind of.
jesse
It looks like a layer cake. [Oscar agrees.]
john
A layer cake. Yeah. Let’s take a look at this picture of banana bread. Do you have the picture? There it is. Ugh. Uuughh.
oscar
Eeew. Oh my god! That is pitiful. [John erupts into laughter and slow claps.] What is that?! That looks like they put like dirt inside of like crust.
jesse
That’s roughly what banana bread is. [John shudders.]
oscar
Dude! That is absolutely disgusting! Who will eat that?!
jesse
Too many people, in my opinion.
oscar
It looks like dirt! Like—?
jesse
It’s better if you toast it and put butter on it, but it’s still not exactly good.
john
Oscar, you’re absolutely right. It looks like dirt. What I really appreciate here is that I feel redeemed. Because we showed you a cake—and yeah, it looked like a cake. And it was boring enough to see. But then, the pure and instinctive contempt that you felt when you saw this banana bread. Clearly, banana bread is its own thing. Now, you’d be surprised to learn—or you might be—according to the recipe that Joel sent for that banana cake, banana cake is also best made with mushy bananas. It is also made out of garbage! But this is proof!
oscar
Mushy bananas, garbage.
john
Yeah! But I mean, if you’re gonna use them for anything, make a cake out of them! You don’t—if anything, that’s just more proof that banana bread is trash. Like, you make banana bread, people are repulsed. You make banana cake, people are—at worst—indifferent, as we’ve seen.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
john
And in my case, I was a little—well, I thought it looked good.
jesse
The lesson here, as far as I’m concerned, is if you’re going to mix bananas, dairy, flour, and sugar, you better have a banana crème pie at the end.
john
Yeah. Banana crème pie would be really good, I think.
oscar
Alright, can we move back to the case, ‘cause I wanna answer this case. It’s been going on for too long.
jesse
Do you think banana bread and banana cake are the same, because they both have bananas, flour, sugar, and so forth?
oscar
Definitely not.
john
Right. Thank you. I’ve never felt more affirmed.
oscar
I’ll admit it—they’re both garbage.
john
[Chuckling.] Okay. Fair enough. They’re both made from garbage. [Inaudible].
jesse
The cake looks okay. [Oscar agrees] I don’t love cake, but it looks—I’d have a slice.
oscar
Neither do I. But what I do like is… can we move to the next case now? I’m bored.
jesse
Okay, one more case from Amy in Delaware, Ohio. “I have a ten-year-old son, named Bill. We have a dispute about the children’s book Mr. Topsy-Turvy. In the story, Mr. Topsy-Turvy visits a town and causes mischief. When he disappears, the town is left completely topsy-turvy. I believe that Mr. Topsy-Turvy has gone home. Bill says the townsfolk have murdered and consumed Mr. Topsy-Turvy. They act topsy-turvy because they have absorbed Mr. Topsy-Turvy’s essence.”
oscar
[Far from the mic.] I love that.
jesse
“Please rule that Bill is wrong and must stop yelling ‘THEY ATE HIM’ when we read the book.”
oscar
So. I have one thing to say. I believe that—how could more than one people consume one person? There’s not enough essence to go around. And plus, they’d get arrested for it. So.
jesse
If there is even—I mean, it’s upside down in topsy-turvy town, who would even do the arresting? The criminals, maybe.
john
I’m not familiar with this book, Mr. Topsy-Turvy. This is one of the little—the Mr. & Ms. books?
jesse
Mr. Men books, yeah. This is a Mr. Men book. I remember this from my own childhood. I was very early on Mr. Men books, because my best buddy, Jodie Scott, had an English parent or English books. Danger Mouse, Mr. Men, and Eastenders were all very important in their house.
john
Amy sent in some evidence, and there’s a page from Mr. Topsy-Turvy about when Mr. Topsy-Turvy has left. And it is an illustration of a newsreader on television. And the text says, “What the town discovered, even though Mr. Topsy-Turvy had left, was that everything was still topsy-turvy. ‘Read all it about!’ Shouted the people selling newspapers, instead of shouting ‘read all about it’.” So, I don’t know this particular Mr. Men book, but Amy sent in some evidence, and it’s a photo sort of towards the end, after Mr. Topsy-Turvy has, mmm, disappeared? Or been eaten, ritually. And I guess it’s a illustration of a news reader on television. It says, “What the town discovered, even though Mr. Topsy-Turvy had left, was that everything was still topsy turvy. ‘Read all it about!’ Shouted the men selling newspapers, instead of shouting ‘read all about it’. ‘Morning good!’ People started saying to each other when they met. And ‘Do you how?’ instead of ‘How do you do?’. Everyone was talking topsy-turvy.” So, Oscar, you feel that Mr. Topsy-Turvy has not been ritually slain and eaten by the townsfolk.
jesse
But that’s just because you think it would be impractical for everyone in the town to have a piece of Mr. Topsy-Turvy?
oscar
Wait, now that I think about it, this is a book.
john
Right. So, why are we even talking about it?
oscar
No, this is a book. Sooo, technically, it’s not like—any way could be anything, even if it doesn’t make sense, since it’s a book and children don’t understand existence. And it’s a children’s book, I’m guessing. So, it just makes sense. ‘Cause children don’t understand some things—most things, actually.
jesse
My thinking is this. You know, Oscar, that book Stone Soup? [Oscar confirms.] You know how they start with the stones, and then they make enough soup for everyone in the entire village? [Oscar confirms.] What if instead of starting with stones, they started with the corpse of Mr. Topsy-Turvy?
oscar
Oh! My! God!
jesse
Then everyone in the village brought like a zucchini or whatever.
oscar
That’s what I’m saying. It’s a book, so either one would work. Because children don’t understand existence and are little, puny—little, puny, little things in this world.
jesse
Well, now you’re talking my language.
john
[Laughs.] Yeah, I mean, I’ll say that Amy’s child is not entirely off the mark, here. You know, cannibalism has been practiced in times of—cannibalism has been practiced in times of hardship—from the Donner party to many, many sailors to those human-eating soccer players in the Andes. It would be hard for an entire township to gain sustenance out of this one Mr. Topsy-Turvy. You’re right. It wouldn’t go. But if the point isn’t survival, but instead ritual, a little Topsy-Turvy goes a long way. Everyone just needs a bite of him to get that essence. Do you know what I mean? You ever read a children’s book called The Lottery?
oscar
No.
john
They should make an illustrated children’s book version of The Lottery. A little Golden Book of The Lottery by Shirley Jackson.
oscar
That would—that is not kid friendly. Gambling is not kid friendly.
john
[Chuckling.] It’s a different kind of gamble, as you will surely read when you hit seventh grade. But! In any case, I am going to say the evidence is right in the text. Yes. Mr. Topsy-Turvy left. It says so. “Mr. Topsy-Turvy had left.” And not only that, but the topsy-turviness of the town would suggest that it is—they are not happy to still be topsy-turvy. Or I should say they are happy not to be still turvy-topsy. Because—you know what I mean? Because they’re like—they can’t—
oscar
Okay, that makes sense.
john
Yeah. So, why would they wanna eat him to get topsy-turvy? Mr. Topsy-Turvy is the antagonist in this. He is the town who comes to stranger, Amy’s son, in a topsy-turvy way. [Oscar agrees.] And then they get rid of him. If eating him was going to save the town, they would not be topsy-turvy at the end. They would’ve consumed him and set things right, is my interpretation.
oscar
Yeah! That makes—that makes sense.
john
Well, I went to Yale for literary theory. Did you know that, Oscar? It was really—never mind. It was worth it. Point is, I’m inclined to rule against ten-year-old Bill on the facts. But on the other hand, which is more fun, Oscar? To believe that Mr. Topsy-Turvy just left or to believe that the town, in secret in the dead of night, decided to eat him.
oscar
I think he just left because children—it’s inappropriate for children. Cannibalism isn’t appropriate. And that’s a children’s book. And it wouldn’t make sense that cannibalism would be inside of a kid’s book. So—
john
No, I agree. I don’t think it was the author’s intent to suggest that this is a town of cannibals. That said, I also learned in college that the author is dead. Probably eaten by the town, frankly! And that you can interpret a book without consideration toward authorial intent.
oscar
Okay, either one’s fine with me. Just choose one.
john
Yeah, okay, I will. Bill wins. Mr. Topsy-Turvy got ‘et (ate), for sure. I think there’s every—the text does not really support that conclusion, but it makes it a lot more fun to read.
jesse
Yeah, Mr. Topsy-Turvy, sounds like the signifier just got signified.
oscar
Bop, bop, bop.
sound effect
Three gavel bangs.
crosstalk
John: Bop, bop, bop. Oscar: Bop-ba-dap. Sing the waaall song.
john
And finally, Amy also sent in—oh! Alright! Let’s do it. [Beat.] I don’t mean—were you gonna sing it? [Oscar denies it and then laughs.] I like it, though. Finally, Amy sent in some other photographic nonevidence of this wonderful dog they have. Do we know the name of this dog? No.
oscar
What’s a dog—how is this dog related?
jesse
Sometimes people just send in pictures of their pets [chuckling] for me to see them. They— [Oscar “aw”s.] Look at his teeth! [Makes grumbly dog noises.]
john
Got a little underbite there. I don’t know what the name of this dog is, and I don’t know what the name of that fish is.
oscar
Fish?
john
Well, I was just—we still have to name that fish.
jesse
What about Mr. Topsy-Turvy?
john
Mr. Topsy-Turvy or Mr. Turvy-Topsy?
oscar
Where’s the picture of the fish?
jesse
No, your last fish that doesn’t have a name yet. What if we named it Mr. Topsy-Turvy?
john
Here are the candidates. Mr. Topsy-Turvy, the fish. Banana Cake, the fish. Disgusting Banana Bread, the fish.
oscar
Oh, I have an idea. I’m gonna name it Banana Bread is Garbage.
john
Banana Bread is Garbage, the fish, welcome to the tank. I love it. Oscar, thank you so much for lending your true wisdom and harsh justice to juvenile court this week.
jesse
The docket is now clear. That’s it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Our producer is Jennifer Marmor. Our editor is Valarie Moffatt. Valarie Moffatt on the boards on this episode! Follow us on Twitter @JesseThorn and @Hodgman. We’re on Instagram @JudgeJohnHodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets #JJHo and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode at MaximumFun.Reddit.com.
john
You know, Oscar, Jesse, Valarie. You are all there in southern California. I don’t know what it’s like there. But here, here it’s taken a real cold snap. Winter is upon us. We gotta get coze’d up, up here. During these dark, cold times, we need some of that cozy comfort. And I was thinking, why don’t you send us some of your cozy disputes! Did your sibling steal your favorite cozy cardigan? Does your partner hog the comfy covers? Oh, I know: a couch full of 13 cats. Is that cozy or merely smelly? [Chuckles.] We’ll take any cozy dispute you might guess. Disputes about tea cozies. Uh.
oscar
Now it’s time for me to go home and play Fortnite.
john
That sounds cozy to me!
jesse
Preferred activity.
john
How do you coze up? What’s your favorite cozy mystery to read? Submit your cozy disputes—
oscar
I don’t know.
oscar
Do it.
jesse
Oscar, you love coziness. What’s cozy to you? You inherited your mom’s passion for being cozy.
oscar
Sissy.
jesse
Sissy, our dog, Sissy. If you have disputes with our dog, Sissy—like she’s a biter, for example.
oscar
And she begs for pets 24/7.
jesse
Once she starts licking you, she just does it compulsively until you literally, physically pull her off you. [Oscar confirms.]
john
None of this sounds particularly cozy to me. But then again, it’s not a cat versus dog thing. That cat puke, not cozy.
jesse
She pees in Mommy and Daddy’s bathroom sometimes, but not in the toilet.
oscar
That’s why I have pet fish. They don’t pee. Well, they poop, but they don’t really pee.
john
And we’ll take any of your disputes that you might have.
jesse
Yeah, and if you have disputes that aren’t about our dog, Sissy, you can still submit them at MaximumFun.org/JJHo.
oscar
‘Cause we don’t care what it’s about.
jesse
Honestly, we don’t. Just submit it, and we’ll let Jen and John sort it out—you know—after it’s been submitted. If you got a dispute, put it in there. [Oscar makes slurping noises.] We’ll eat it up. Oscar, my son, is losing his mind at this point. So, we’ll talk to you next time. We gotta go get some tacos. We’ll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.
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Comedy and culture.
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Artist owned—
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—audience supported.
About the show
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