TRANSCRIPT Depresh Mode Ep. 130: Podcaster Jane Marie Hires Professional Help for a Life Turned Difficult

Podcast: Depresh Mode with John Moe

Episode number: 130

Guests: Jane Marie


[00:00:00] John Moe: I don’t want to use too technical of a mental health term here, but during the pandemic, a whole lot of us went what could only be described as cuckoo pants. We turned bonkers. We went ape, we were bananas, we became absolute blinking nutcases. And then slowly—much more slowly than I at least ever expected—the shutdown, the lockdown, the period of home cocooning, began to lift. And then you could go places without masks. Things appeared to be getting back to normal. But I don’t think we were normal. I think we were forever changed. We weren’t the same after that. I think something about the pandemic got us all—and again, sorry to use medical jargon here—got us all doinked up. And we were left to make sense of all that doinking up. Perhaps that’s what made you turn to this podcast. It’s Depresh Mode. I’m John Moe. I’m glad you’re here.

[00:00:58] Transition: Spirited acoustic guitar.

[00:01:06] John Moe: Jane Marie decided, after enduring a rough patch with her life and mental health around the time of the pandemic, to try a life coach. Jane is the creator and host of the podcast The Dream, now in its third season. The first two seasons of that show looked at multilevel marketing and the wellness industry. Those topics are still in play in the third season, but this season has a lot to do with life coaches: how to find one, how they actually overlap with multilevel marketing, and how the life coach industry works. She ends up finding and hiring one of her own. So, I wanted to talk to her about all that.

[00:01:41] Transition: Spirited acoustic guitar.

[00:01:48] John Moe: Jane Marie, welcome to Depresh Mode.

(Jane thanks him.)

How are you doing today?

[00:01:53] Jane Marie: This very day, I’m doing great. And it’s really fun to say that.

(They laugh.)

It’s nice. I’m enjoying it while it lasts.

[00:02:01] John Moe: Okay. Has it been bracketed by some days that weren’t as great?

[00:02:06] Jane Marie: Always. I mean, that’s just life for me, anyway. But yeah, I have to appreciate the good days, which is today, and I’m hoping it lasts for a while. Yeah.

[00:02:16] John Moe: Excellent. I hope so too. I listened to The Dream. Excellent show. Congratulations on that. What led you to look for a life coach?

[00:02:29] Jane Marie: So, I’ve had a therapist forever. I’ve had my same therapist for about 10 years, and I love her. I adore her. I think that during the pandemic, you know, not being in person was probably—was difficult, definitely—and changed the dynamic a little bit. But we’re still—I still see her every single week. But during the pandemic, we had to do it by phone, and it was all remote. And then during the pandemic, a bunch of crap happened that like if it weren’t a pandemic, would probably still be difficult, but it just felt like a time when things were piling on, and I was losing my resolve.

And so, coming out of that and starting, you know, to think about themes in this next season, I just wanted to have a little extra help. And to be perfectly transparent, I had a budget for making the show that would afford either travel or hiring correspondents or those sorts of things, and I diverted some of the budget to this life coach. Because we don’t take freebies in this world. So, it was a luxury, actually, but I really wanted someone to help me in a really hands-on way to get out of bed, essentially. (Laughs.) Not by coming over and dragging me out of bed, but I—you know.

[00:03:52] John Moe: That’s a different kind of coach. Yeah.

[00:03:52] Jane Marie: Yeah. The stuff I work on in therapy is much broader and also deeply personal. And this was—I just wanted something really functional. I wanted someone to say, “If you move your body in this particular way this many times a week and prioritize sleep in this particular way and eat this way, you will feel at least a little bit better. And here’s how you’re gonna do it.” And so, that’s what she did.

[00:04:19] John Moe: So, the stuff that you were dealing with, was it—I mean, how much of it was the pandemic, and how much of it was depression or anxiety or things—disorders that you had already been dealing with for a long time?

[00:04:32] Jane Marie: Well, I’ve been a lifelong depressive. I’ve talked about this elsewhere, but I had a traumatic brain injury as a kid—which gives you like, I don’t know, like a 75% chance of having chronic depression. So, it started like when I was little. And I have always gone to therapy, and I have always—except for when I was pregnant, I’ve always taken medication. Which now—just a caveat for pregnant people out there, this was 11 years ago, and the thinking has really changed in that short of time where you don’t have to go off of all your meds. So, talk to your doctor. (Chuckles.) But when I was pregnant, they were saying, “Stop taking everything!” So, that was tough.

But I’ve always used antidepressants. I have always gone to therapy. And so, the pandemic was—my depressive episodes, which I’ve only had like three—(knocks three times) knock on wood—like major depressive episodes, but they’re usually triggered by some sort of trauma. And I think that the pandemic, that just underlying every single day made things that may not have been traumatic were that not there—made them more traumatic. If that makes sense. So, like my uncle died at the very beginning of the pandemic, and it wasn’t unexpected in that he’d had HIV and AIDS off and on, you know, for 40 years or so—for almost my whole life. So, it was something we talked very openly about. And so, it eventually happened.

But I think because the pandemic was going on and like no one in my family could come help me like clean his house out, those sorts of things, there were just a number of things like that. My daughter’s father moved across the country. There were just—like, a stacking up of stuff that had the world been, quote/unquote, “normal” I think it wouldn’t have had such an—each one wouldn’t have had such an impact, but I was already at a deficit. If that makes sense.

[00:06:35] John Moe: What did the impact feel like?

[00:06:38] Jane Marie: Like—I keep saying this phrase, but like a very steady chipping away at my resolve, at my reserves for like tolerating stress. (Sighs.) I think depressives will understand what I’m saying here.

[00:07:01] John Moe: You’ve come to the right show.

[00:07:02] Jane Marie: Yeah. (Chuckles.) But you know when… it just felt like a piling on. It felt like every day something would hit me, and I’d just be like, “Can I fucking catch a break, please? I am trying so hard here.” And in retrospect, when I’m not depressed and I’m feeling better, I go, “Those—yes, they were difficult things, but they’re just going to keep happening. It’s just life.” You know when you have like an extra $500 and then you get two flat tires?

(They chuckle.)

Like, the universe just hands you a broken window, you know, when you’re like a little bit flush. It felt like that every day. It felt like that every day. Like, the second I would feel like my head was above water, someone would dunk me. And it—yeah. That’s where I was.

[00:07:49] John Moe: Are you making progress in the therapy? Or is it a matter of just maintaining and kind of managing in a status quo sort of way?

[00:07:59] Jane Marie: Oh no, I’m making tons of progress in therapy. There were—yeah, there were—well, so for me, my therapy changes a lot because my situation changes a lot. Like, you know, what I have to do as a parent, as a business owner. I have projects come in that, you know, are stressful—like writing a book. I had to write a book during the pandemic too, by the way. (Chuckling.) It was just like, “What?” And homeschool and run this company and make podcasts and et cetera. But she’s really, really helpful with helping me keep perspective about my life and what I really want and not letting me—she doesn’t “let” me do anything, but me not letting myself go off the rails. Like, I sometimes make decisions in my personal life that are not big picture thinking with friends and lovers and all of that. And I need to be more thoughtful about that stuff as I get older, I think, and as I’m a mom with a—you know, someone entering part of her life.

Like, my daughter’s ten. She’s going to start having romances and best friends and all of those things that get really complicated around that age. And I—so, the knowledge that I’m gaining around that is very, very useful and helpful. And then, you know, we also talk about like just my patterns. You know, the little—my little dad that lives in my head.

[00:09:33] John Moe: You have a little dad?

[00:09:34] Jane Marie: Yeah! Like, when you go like, “Oh, that’s not me. That’s my dad talking. Like, that’s not actually me.” That dad.

[00:09:39] John Moe: Oh, sure. That dad. Yes, okay. (Laughs.)

[00:09:41] Jane Marie: Like, I’m doing something weird right now. Oh, that’s not me, it’s my dad. That’s very helpful to be reminded that my dad’s—there’s a little dad on my shoulder. I don’t have to—

[00:09:48] John Moe: Right. Your little head dad.

[00:09:50] Jane Marie: Yeah, I don’t have to listen to him. Yeah.

(They laugh.)

[00:09:53] John Moe: Okay. Right, right. Yeah, there’s all sorts of those little voices that would love to be heard, and then it’s a matter of not giving them microphones, so to speak.

(Jane affirms.)

So, then when you set out with that background and you set out for the new season, set out to look for life coaches, were you looking to kind of shine a spotlight on that industry? Or were you looking to get legitimate help for yourself? Or both?

[00:10:21] Jane Marie: Both, for sure. The life coach that I ended up going with—I mean, I shopped around a lot. Like, I talked to a bunch of people, and I looked at a bunch of websites, and I really thought hard about what I don’t want in a life coach, and I ended up finding someone who I really like, and she was very action oriented. We did a really long intake when I first started with her where we talked about just my lifestyle. I needed a lifestyle change. I needed to not be going to Taco Bell every day, and like I needed to not feel like I wanted to sleep through the day, those sorts of things.

What I did find in shopping for her is that she’s kind of unusual, (chuckling) at least in LA, in terms of how a lot of the life coaches out here operate. Which I liked, you know; I really didn’t want a lot of woo-woo. She’s a little woo-woo, but I wanted to be able to take her seriously. And I have a lot more fun like poking at that kind of thinking. So, I didn’t want someone that was just gonna, you know, talk to me about the moon. Although she does talk about the moon a lot for herself, but she wasn’t making me do any like new moon fasting or anything like that.

(John chuckles.)

And yeah, but I did want to look at the whole industry, and she helped me see one side of it.

[00:11:45] John Moe: So, the idea of a life coach has always intrigued me in that there doesn’t seem to be state certification or a graduate school program. There’s probably a graduate school program somewhere, come to think of it, but it’s not a normal, standardized thing.

(Jane confirms.)

So, how much of an industry is it, as opposed to just a bunch of people running around calling themselves life coaches?

[00:12:13] Jane Marie: Well, there are a couple of certifying organizations who don’t license them. So, they’re not like keeping up with people. They’re not mandated to keep up with people over the years, like other licensing—like real licensing boards. But there are certifications you can get through a couple of very large organizations like the International Coaching Federation and a couple others. And those folks do try to keep track of, you know, how many life coaches are being certified and how much money is being made and all of that. So, when you want to, you know, Google “what is the life coaching industry in the U S worth?”, the numbers are coming from those organizations. But that’s just a small fraction of the people who call themselves life coaches, as you’re saying.

So, (chuckles) having reported on multilevel marketing, I’m used to the vagaries at this point and to like—they’re not being a reliable source on this sort of stuff. (Laughs.) So, I’m comfortable just saying, “Well, according to these places. There’s 23,000 life coaches in the US right now.” But probably multiply that by five or ten, you know, to get to the real number. I call it an industry in the show, because I think that life coaches—if you took a bunch of life coaches and put them in a room, they would all say that they have different areas of expertise, but the things they have in common are, you know, they take on clients. They have a system. They—you know, there’s like a curriculum sort of for their clients. And then a lot of them also recruit people to become life coaches or have like a curriculum for training other life coaches.

[00:13:54] John Moe: Yeah. I mean, a lot of your series and a lot of the work that you’ve done is about multilevel marketing or network sales or whatever the term for it is, there seems to be a lot of terms.

[00:14:06] Jane Marie: Pyramid schemes? (Laughs.)

[00:14:07] John Moe: And this series was a lot of—yeah, exactly. A lot of this series was about the connection between that world and life coaching. Why do those worlds intersect so much?

[00:14:16] Jane Marie: You know, funny, people ask me this all the time. And I feel like as I have been doing more and more research on it and thinking about it more, it’s really—a lot of what bolsters the multilevel marketing industry is not the products themselves. Because if you accept the premise that I’ve come to accept that there is no money to be made in multilevel marketing—so, you go in, you do your signup fee. You start selling Avon or whatever to your family and friends, and you soon realize you’re not turning a profit. Don’t worry, because there are other products your MLM is selling in the form of trainings and mindset coaching and kind of all the things a life coach would have you do or a business coach.

So, it’s already—this like idea of coaching, this idea of changing your mindset, of changing your lifestyle, of there’s a formula for how many, you know, posts you need to do a day. And here’s what you need to eat and drink to have your energy to get out there and recruit people. That sort of thing is already totally baked into the MLM model. That’s—and then I think people who are ambitious enough to want to be successful in that arena then also see the money that can be made in coaching. (Chuckles.) And a lot of people do both at the same time, you know? Like, they may be failing. I mean, we talk about this in one of the episodes of this season where a lot of these life coaches that were getting laid off in tech jobs in Texas started going to these life coaching group meetings and then becoming life coaches, but they’re just like unemployed people becoming career coaches. (Laughs.) It’s similar to that. I think that the whole “you can make money no matter what, as long as you have the right attitude and the gumption” is all—it’s the same product that is being sold in multilevel marketing and life coaching.

[00:16:26] John Moe: Are people who get into those worlds of multilevel marketing and subsequently self-declared life coaching and, you know, have a positive attitude and you can achieve anything—are those people suckers? I mean are they—

(Jane disagrees.)


[00:16:43] Jane Marie: No! (Laughs.) No. No, they might be really good listeners. I mean, we’re all suckers. If they’re suckers, we’re all suckers, right? Because we live here in America, and we’ve all bought the lie, right? Like. (Laughs.)

[00:16:59] John Moe: Wait, which—there’s several lies, which lie are you speaking of? (Chuckles.)

[00:17:01] Jane Marie: You know, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. There are so many lies. Like, I bust my ass every day. Will I ever be able to buy a house? Absolutely not. Never. I’ll never be able to buy a house, and you can tell me I pay too much for rent, but it—I would have to live in a shittier rental for probably 10/20 years to save up enough money to buy a house. So, that’s just not happening for me. And that’s something that we’ve—you know, I’m 45 like that—it’s just never gonna happen! (Chuckles.) These kind of promises that were made to all of us about what our hard work will earn us. I think what MLMs offer and what life coaches offer is like a shortcut. And the people telling the lie for the people at the top aren’t necessarily complicit.

Some of them are, but I think the folks at the very top of these kind of scammy organizations must know what they’re doing. And I don’t think that trickles down to everyone in the scheme. I think a lot of times the people beneath those people just say, “Oh, they’re telling me I have the opportunity to be them.” But it would—it’s just like saying, “Work hard enough and you can be the next Jeff Bezos.” And there are people out there—there’s been studies about this. There’s people out there who hear that and go, “Yeah, of course.” And then there’s people like me. (Laughs.) There’s people like me that—well, I would have to have just a completely different moral compass, you know. And it’s—I can’t. I’m not going to do that. But there’s a lot of people that say, “Yeah, I could be the next Jeff Bezos, sure thing.” Or Elon Musk or whatever. And I don’t think they’re suckers. I don’t think they’re suckers for thinking that. I think they are ambitious and just different.

[00:18:48] John Moe: Yeah. Well, they’re looking for an antidote to the great lies, aren’t they?

[00:18:53] Jane Marie: Exactly. Yeah. And they’re being told that there is one by people who have a lot of money.

[00:18:59] John Moe: (Chuckles.) Okay. So, is there a way to go—and let’s look at life coaching. Is there a way to approach it in a sensible, pragmatic, not getting conned kind of way that you’ve discovered? Is there a path to having this work well for a person?

[00:19:22] Jane Marie: I think so. I mean, I think if you go into it—well, I’m just going to speak from my experience. Because again, (sighing) there aren’t studies that I would rely on to tell me whether that’s the case or not at this point. I’m sure there’s plenty coming, but this is a newer area of study. So, I’d say just anecdotally, if you go into it with a pretty clear sense of what you’re hoping to get out of it, and you look for the person who you think will most likely help you get there, you can totally have success. But if you go with like the flashiest one, (laughs) you may end up out of thousands of dollars or you—there were a lot of life coaches who had like spiritual practices that I just knew weren’t going to be good for me, because I’m just not that way in my daily life. And so, I wanted to kind of stay away from something that would be personality altering.

So, I think success—this is going to sound so stupid, but I think (chuckles) it’s what you make it, right? Like, you have to have the intentions going in: I’m going to listen to this person, and I’m not going to spend over X dollars, and I’m going to stick to that. There’s a lot of trust, though. You have to trust that this person knows what they’re talking about. So, doing your research ahead of time is really important.

[00:20:43] Transition: Spirited acoustic guitar.

[00:20:45] John Moe: Coming up, more about Jane Marie and the life coach she found—who ended up being a depressed life coach.

(Music ends.)

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[00:22:15] Promo:

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(Music fades out.)

[00:23:13] Transition: Relaxed acoustic guitar.

[00:23:16] John Moe: Back with Jane Marie of the podcast The Dream, which is all about life coaches and the unique life coach that Jane found.

[00:23:24] Jane Marie: Like, I wanted someone who was just completely content and successful. And I found a like chronic depressive instead who talks about that on the show. She’s like, “I’m a very high functioning depressive. I’m always depressed.” And I was surprised by that—like, that I heard that and stuck with her. It really was more of like, “Oh, we’re kindred spirits. You understand what I’m actually going through.”

[00:23:51] John Moe: Yeah. And well, and when she said that, you said kind of half under your breath, “Yeah, me too.” So, what did this do for your depression? Finding a life coach who was relatively bullshit free and who you vibed with?

[00:24:07] Jane Marie: I think that—this is—(chuckles) I’m not even the 100th person to make this jokey observation, but you know how they say getting sleep and exercise and eating well actually makes you feel better? (Laughs.)

[00:24:22] John Moe: It turns out, yeah.

(They laugh.)

[00:24:25] Jane Marie: God damn it! Like, it’s true! I hate doing it still. Every time. I’m somebody who, when I work out, I just want to go to sleep afterwards. Like, it does not give me endorphins that like make me feel any better. I hate it the whole time. I just want it to be over with. So, the actual act of working out—like, my kid is into tennis right now. So, I’ve been taking her to the courts a couple times a week and getting really sweaty. And I just want to sit down the whole time. I just want to like go into the shade and sit down. That’s all I’m thinking about. And I’m trying to like—

[00:24:56] John Moe: Oh, you have to hit with her? You have to play against her? Oh no.

[00:24:58] Jane Marie: Yeah. Well, I know I’m not rich, so I can’t—you know, tennis coaches are whew! And unfortunately, I know how to play tennis. So, yeah, I just—the whole time I’m trying to be like, “Yay, good job. And here, look—” But what I’m really thinking is like, “Just five more minutes, just five more minutes. Then you can sit down, and then you can sit down, and the air conditioning in the car will be so nice. And then we can go home and just relax, and I can lay in bed, and then I can maybe fall asleep or maybe not.” Usually not.

So, that never changed, but I have to admit (chuckles) that something changed, you know? Like, I feel better overall. It maybe was a compounding effect of six months of just doing it despite not wanting to do it. But my body feels better. I’ve lost like—literally like 20 pounds, which feels better, just moving around in my body as—because I put on a lot of weight during the pandemic. And so, I’m kind of close to my starting weight, and I don’t really care to lose anymore. But you know, it is depressing to not be able to wear any of your clothes. Like, that can bum you out if you’re already in a depressed space. So, feeling better physically, getting better sleep is like huge! Waking up in the morning and feeling energized.

I was—you know, now I have like really good sleep hygiene in the evening that I—you know, I have a routine. These routines, I’ve always been resistant to them, but it turns out that they work to help you feel a little bit better.

[00:26:31] John Moe: No phone in the bed? Is that a rule?

[00:26:33] Jane Marie: No phone in the bed. No blue light like an hour before sleep. So, get a real book and a real lamp if you need it. You know, read, take a bath, that kind of thing. Yeah, get settled. And try to turn off your work if possible. I mean, I own a business, and I work for myself, and I am a single parent. So, I think also I was suffering from like having no boundaries in my day.

(John affirms.)

Yeah, and like prioritizing doing stuff. Like, I went to the movies by myself the other day. It was awesome!

[00:27:15] John Moe: So, was this advice from your coach to get on a sleep schedule, go see movies by yourself, that kind of thing?

[00:27:22] Jane Marie: Yeah, do stuff that you enjoy just for you.

[00:27:26] John Moe: Now, devil’s advocate, a lot of that stuff is freely available information that one might not need a coach to get.

[00:27:36] Jane Marie: I’m sorry, it is not freely available if I’m on TikTok all day!

(John laughs.)

And my TikTok is like—my algorithm, like my—the things I swipe on—

[00:27:46] John Moe: You’ve got it finely tuned?

[00:27:47] Jane Marie: Yeah, there it is not life coaches, necessarily. It’s not people coming in there and telling me how to live better. It’s a lot of rapping and dancing and like garbage picking.

(John laughs.)

I love the garbage picking.

[00:28:00] John Moe: Wait, what’s garbage picking?

[00:28:01] Jane Marie: Like, people who like go to dumpster dive and find, you know, like boxes full of Chanel bags and things like that. It’s also—there’s a lot of like live streaming of multilevel marketing. There’s this whole thing in MLMs where there’s like surprises, like surprise gifts that are either stuffed in bath bombs or like oyster shucking MLMs where you find pearls and stuff. And they do live streams. I’m obsessed with those. Yeah. So, if I’m in bed on TikTok all day or, you know, making podcasts, I’m not—(laughs) same difference. I’m kidding. I’m not necessarily thinking about how to improve my life.

[00:28:41] John Moe: Fewer pearls in podcasting.

[00:28:44] Jane Marie: Yeah, I’m not really thinking. I know it’s freely available, but if you’ve ever been depressed, you—it’s not like you become stupid when you’re depressed. It’s not like you don’t know what you should be doing. You know, I think for me, it was a little bit like feeling obligated to somebody. Like, feeling like I paid the money, I have an appointment scheduled. And trust me, I canceled plenty. But—and I don’t do that in any other part of my life. Like, I don’t miss appointments, and I’m on time for everything. But this—you know, this is tough for me. So, I think that depressives would relate to this. It’s not like you are an idiot when you’re depressed. You know exactly what action steps—

[00:29:26] John Moe: You know what’s healthy and what’s not healthy.

[00:29:29] Jane Marie: Exactly. You know what to do. Which is the whole thing of depression is that you can’t! That’s the whole thing! So, I was doubling up on the people saying, “Yes, you can, and here’s how you’re going to do it.” You know? So, I had my therapist and my life coach, but again, such a luxury.

(John agrees.)

And I think—I will say, I don’t have a partner. But I think going forward, if I ever got one and I was in a serious relationship, now that I know how much my life coach helped, I would get one of those immediately instead of bringing this stuff to my partner. That’s one thing that I—

[00:30:09] John Moe: What stuff?

[00:30:11] Jane Marie: All of like being responsible for me getting my shit together. Being the person that reminds me of how the universe works. I don’t want my partner to have to be like, “Jane, you do have to get out of bed. Jane, you do have to eat food in the morning. You have to go to bed now.” You know, like that sort of stuff. I have in the past brought it all to my partner, and I think it must be fucking exhausting.

[00:30:33] John Moe: So, you’ve looked at a wide variety of life coaches. And some of them—if you listen to The Dream, there’s some corkers out there. And let’s say aliens land on Earth, they’re going to obliterate civilization unless Jane Marie becomes a professional life coach, so you need to do this—

[00:30:55] Jane Marie: Oh, I got certified.

[00:30:56] John Moe: Did you?!

[00:30:57] Jane Marie: Yeah! (Laughs.) I got certified. I don’t talk about it on the show, because it seemed too silly, like after everything that happened.

[00:31:05] John Moe: This is like vampires! Like every—or zombies! Like, you know, you become one of them and then you—

[00:31:11] Jane Marie: I became one! Yeah. No.

[00:31:13] John Moe: There’s a bite and then you become another one!

[00:31:15] Jane Marie: Well, I just wanted to see what the deal was and like how—it was a lot more hard—like, more— Okay. It was a lot more labor intensive than I expected. I did not think there would be as much homework. It was one of those programs where you can’t move to the next assignment until you like watch a whole video, and you have to watch it all the way through. And like, then it ends, and then a window pops up with your homework, and then your homework is like either an essay or I had to do like in person test runs with people and stuff like that. It was like about six weeks. It only cost me $200. I don’t know if I really learned very much, but it was fun? It was kind of like—I don’t know, it was kind of like being into astrology or something. Like, I don’t believe any of this, but it’s funny. (Chuckling.) Like, I’m enjoying myself.

[00:32:10] John Moe: That’s lot of work to go through just for something to be funny. Like, why—?

[00:32:15] Jane Marie: I was amusing myself. I mean, it was an hour a day, maybe at most. You know, some days were a couple hours of work, but I was curious! I was like, “What is the—what are people learning here? And like, how does it feel different from college or other certificate programs? Like, I’ve gone to bartending school like an idiot. Don’t ever go to bartending school, people. There’s no reason. (Laughs.) Especially if you end up working like in a Chicago bar that only serves shots and beer. But yeah, it was like that, like a silly hobby for—it was like taking pottery lessons.

[00:32:54] John Moe: I also think a life coach should be obligated to wear a sweatshirt and have a whistle and possibly hold a clipboard and have a baseball cap.

[00:33:03] Jane Marie: (Laughs.) Some do! Some do. You can find that person.

(John affirms.)

See, if that’s the kind of life coach you need, then you could find that. I’m sure!

[00:33:09] John Moe: Yeah, or spend 200 bucks and become that, if I had to.

(Jane agrees.)

Well, so then back to the original question. You become a life coach. What kind of life coach would you be? Like, what have you learned is most constructive and most positive and most genuinely helpful to people?

[00:33:33] Jane Marie: (Beat.) To people in general?

[00:33:35] John Moe: Yeah. To somebody who hires you. Like, what—you know, it’s like what kind of teacher would you be? What kind of parent would you be? What kind of life coach would you be?

[00:33:46] Jane Marie: I think I’d be pretty chill.

(They laugh.)

I think like—again, like it’s—I would want people to find me who like my vibe, you know, who can see themselves working with someone like me. One thing I really appreciated about my coach is when I hated some of the workouts, she was like, “That’s okay. You don’t have to do this particular thing. You can just walk. Why don’t you just go for a walk?” And I was like great. I love that we can bend the rules. I love that like you are not attached to me doing burpees or whatever, ‘cause I’m not gonna do that every day. And I think I would be flexible like that, but I would—also, I would be very cheerlead-y. I know that. I would be like, “You got this! You’re awesome!” Like, I can definitely do that. And genuinely, like I do feel—

[00:34:34] John Moe: You would believe that while you were doing it.

[00:34:36] Jane Marie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. I would feel very confident telling just about anybody that they’re doing great. You’re alive; you’re nailing it.

(They laugh.)

[00:34:49] John Moe: So, you’ve completed the season of your show—and congratulations on that.

(Jane thanks him.)

Do you think staying with your life coach is going to be something that is an ongoing thing?

[00:35:03] Jane Marie: No, I can’t afford it. But we are staying in touch, and we have a plan to check in every few months, and that I will pay for. But I really can’t afford it. She—we were meeting twice a week. She’s $85 a session for an hour of—it was personal training and talking and planning and looking at my calendar and talking about what I’m eating and that sort of stuff. It was a lot of wellness stuff. But then, you know, catching up personally. So, we spent a couple hours a week together. And I just can’t. That’s way more money than I have.

[00:35:46] John Moe: How did you find her?

[00:35:48] Jane Marie: Yelp.

[00:35:50] John Moe: Just Yelp?

(Jane confirms with a laugh.)

Yelp for life coaches?

[00:35:51] Jane Marie: I went—I mean, I started with Google and like looking for a life coach on Google. And then it was so overwhelming, ‘cause I’m in LA.

(John giggles.)

But after a bit I needed to find something that would like at least narrow things in some way—like, you know, some sort of ranking or whatever. And I went on Yelp and just searched the whole county, essentially. Plus, it was—you know, I was not thinking that I—at first I thought, “Oh, I could do remote.” And then I had to get real with myself and be like, “Actually, no, I need someone to knock on my door. I need someone to like ring the doorbell and be in my face.”

[00:36:35] John Moe: Yeah. Would you recommend Yelp as a good way for other people to find a life coach?

[00:36:44] Jane Marie: (Laughs.) I… it worked for me!

(John laughs and affirms.)

I mean, yeah, they’re all so different. Like, the recommending or saying this is the thing that works, or this is the thing. It’s like, because it’s… I think the same thing about therapists. Like, I think you—there’s a million different types of therapists, and you just have to be open to like walking away from one if it’s not working. Or just saying, “Mm. That’s not really my flavor. I got to move on.” You know, and that’s fine. So, it’s kind of the same thing, except there’s, you know, no board you can check out and say, “Are they on the up and up?” (Chuckles.) You just have to use your intuition or read the Yelp reviews. Like, absent a licensing organization or, you know, a board certification, like Yelp reviews are helpful.

[00:37:40] John Moe: Yeah. So, not everybody is living in—well, I don’t want to phrase it like that about LA. I don’t want to rip on LA.

[00:37:48] Jane Marie: Why not?

(They laugh.)

This place is ridiculous. It’s a cartoon town! On purpose!

[00:37:56] John Moe: Now, I imagine in a place like LA or New York, there’s a life coach around every corner, but not everybody lives in those places. A lot of people live in some remote areas, but still want access to some of these things. Are there life coaches available who work in a remote style that you think are effective and worth the time and money?

[00:38:19] Jane Marie: I definitely do. And I think in the Zoom world, where we can do group meetings via zoom or, you know, a monthly check-in, they can be very affordable, sometimes more affordable than therapy. And I don’t think it’s a bad option to look for a coach who offers remote services. Often a lot of the stuff that I was being taught was about nutrition or, you know, a lot of health things that can be shared digitally. And I didn’t really need someone in my house to help me with that.

I think also I want to note that one really, really nice thing about life coaching—which is nice and also unfortunate—is that it doesn’t have the same stigma as therapy and psychiatry do. So, if that’s something that your friends or family would have a problem with, or—you know, if you aren’t there yet and ready to talk to a therapist or a psychiatrist, it’s a good entry point. Because I think that, personality wise, a lot of life coaches are just therapists without the student debt.

[00:39:40] John Moe: (Laughs.) And the box of Kleenex in a shared office.

[00:39:42] Jane Marie: There you go. The Palo Santo oil or whatever. That’s what my therapist has. (Laughs.)

[00:39:49] John Moe: The fern in the corner.

(Jane agrees.)

The show is the dream. The host and creator and executive producer of it is Jane Marie. Jane, thank you so much.

[00:40:00] Jane Marie: My pleasure. You’re welcome.

[00:40:01] Transition: Relaxed acoustic guitar fades in.

[00:40:02] John Moe: Season three of The Dream is available now where you get your podcasts. Laura House just ahead with a meditation moment.

(Music fades out.)

[00:40:12] Promo:

Music: Playful, exciting synth.

Ellen Weatherford: People say not to judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

Christian Weatherford: Which is why here on Just the Zoo of Us, we judge them by so much more.

Ellen: We rate animals out of 10 in the categories of effectiveness, ingenuity, and aesthetics, taking into consideration each animal’s true strengths—like a pigeon’s ability to tell a Monet from a Picasso or a polar bear’s ability to play basketball.

Christian: Guest experts like biologists, ecologists, and more join us to share their unique insight into the animal’s world.

Ellen: Listen with friends and family of all ages on or wherever you get podcasts.

(Music ends.)

[00:40:53] Transition: Relaxed acoustic guitar.

[00:41:03] John Moe: And it’s time for a meditation moment with our friend, Laura House, the cohost of the Tiny Victories podcast. Hello Laura.

(Laura says hi.)

Let’s achieve some inner peace if only just for a moment, shall we?

[00:41:15] Jane Marie: Yeah, let’s just let go. I remember again and again, when I meditate—even though I do it all the time, I’m still fascinated by like, “Oh, it actually feels better.” And I normally talk about—we just notice the breath, but I saw something the other day that we can try if you want, is—

(John agrees.)

There’s several things you can focus on when you meditate. You just give your mind a little job and notice what’s going on in your body. But we can try a color. You can think of your favorite version of blue or green or whatever your color is. And so, let’s try it.

(John agrees.)

You just close your eyes. And now in your mind, just sort of in your head see your favorite color. Maybe you’re holding something that’s that color, or you’re surrounded by that color… or just in front of you, as if it’s on a screen. And just let go. (Beat.) Just sort of sit there in your color, and you might start noticing your body relax. (Beat.) You might notice your breath slowing down. (Beat.) And you’re going to have thoughts. And as they come up, just keep putting attention on this color.

(Long pause.)

And you can go ahead and open your eyes. Gently come out of it. How was that for you?

[00:43:00] John Moe: Deep forest green.

[00:43:02] Laura House: Oh, that’s a good color!

[00:43:04] John Moe: It was lovely. I did feel like—once I kind of got it locked in, I felt my shoulders drop a little bit and I felt—you know, became aware of my breath in a nice way. It was wonderful.

[00:43:14] Jane Marie: Oh, that’s nice! I kind of liked it too. I was just sitting in blue, and then I—it’s like we struggle to come out; our thoughts are always gonna kind of attack meditation the first few moments. I don’t have time for this! This is stupid! What are you doing?! I have a whole—I have a lot of appointments! And then it’s like—I was just—then I was just like hanging out in blue, and I was like, “This isn’t so bad! It’s pretty cool.”

[00:43:37] John Moe: Nice! Well, thank you for our journey to colors.

[00:43:40] Laura House: (Laughs.) A new little trick.

[00:43:42] Music: “Building Wings” by Rhett Miller, an up-tempo acoustic guitar song. The music continues quietly under the dialogue.

[00:43:43] John Moe: Laura House can be found at and on the Tiny Victories podcast here on Maximum Fun. Laura, thanks.

(Laura thanks him.)

Next time on Depresh Mode, Pooja had gone to the best schools, gotten married, was in her residency to become a doctor, but something felt wrong. Well, everything felt wrong.

[00:44:02] Pooja Lakshmin: So, I was really angry, and I kind of just burned it all down. I blew up my marriage. I moved into this wellness commune in San Francisco that was focused on meditation and spirituality and female sexuality. I dropped out of my residency program, and I spent two years with this group kind of really going deep into alternative medicine and everything woo-woo that you could really think of.

[00:44:26] John Moe: Then she got fed up with the wellness commune and returned to her residency. She’s collected a lot of wisdom on her way, and Dr. Pooja Lakshmin joins us.

If people donate to our show, we can keep making Depresh Mode. If they stop, then we can’t. We think this show is providing something for the world. We hope you feel the same way. We hope you’ve already donated. And if you have, thank you. If you haven’t done it yet, we really need to hear from you. And it’s easy to do, just go to You find a level that works for you, you select Depresh Mode from the list of shows, and then you’re on your way. Be sure to check out our merchandise store; the holidays are soon arriving. That’s at We have all sorts of Depresh Mode merchandise there. We have I’m Glad You’re Here mugs and shirts. We have Depresh Mode sweatpants. We even have blankets. So, check that out. Be sure to hit subscribe. Give us five stars. Write rave reviews. That helps get the show out into the world where it can help folks.

(Music drops out.)

The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available 24/7 for free in the United States by calling 988. The Crisis Text Line, also free and always available, text HOME to 741741.

Our Instagram and Twitter are @DepreshPod. If you’re on Facebook, look up our mental health discussion group, Preshies. Our Depresh Mode newsletter is on Substack, search that up. I’m on Twitter and Instagram @JohnMoe. I spell it with an H. Please use our electric mail address,

Hi, credits listeners. My poor dog, Sally, needs to temporarily wear a cone around her head due to a thing with her foot. She’s fine. It’s sad, though, when she’s feeling playful and tries to pick up a tennis ball and just can’t get to it. That’s when I take the cone off her, just for a few minutes. Good girl, Sally.

Depresh Mode is made possible by your contributions. Our production team includes Gabe Mara, Laura Swisher, and Kevin Ferguson.

(Music fades back in.)

We get booking help from Mara Davis. Rhett Miller wrote and performed our theme song, “Building Wings”.

[00:46:34] Music: “Building Wings” by Rhett Miller.

I’m always falling off of cliffs, now

Building wings on the way down

I am figuring things out

Building wings, building wings, building wings


No one knows the reason

Maybe there’s no reason

I just keep believing

No one knows the answer

Maybe there’s no answer

I just keep on dancing

[00:47:09] Stacey: Hi, this is Stacey from Murray, Utah. And both my cats think you’re pretty darn cool.

[00:47:15] John Moe: Depresh Mode is a production of Maximum Fun and Poputchik. I’m John Moe. Bye now.

(Music fades out.)

[00:47:22] Sound Effect: Cheerful ukulele chord.

[00:47:23] Speaker 1: Maximum Fun.

[00:47:24] Speaker 2: A worker-owned network.

[00:47:25] Speaker 3: Of artist owned shows.

[00:47:27] Speaker 4: Supported—

[00:47:28] Speaker 5: —directly—

[00:47:29] Speaker 6: —by you!

About the show

Join host John Moe (The Hilarious World of Depression) for honest, relatable, and, yes, sometimes funny conversations about mental health. Hear from comedians, musicians, authors, actors, and other top names in entertainment and the arts about living with depression, anxiety, and many other common disorders. Find out what they’ve done to address it, what worked, and what didn’t. Depresh Mode with John Moe also features useful insights on mental health issues with experts in the field. It’s honest talk from people who have been there and know their stuff. No shame, no stigma, and maybe a few laughs.

Like this podcast? Then you’ll love John’s book, The Hilarious World of Depression.

Logo by Clarissa Hernandez.

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